Floor Jansen (24,247 views)

[Steingrim]

youtu.be/Od_qcbw3f5Q?si=FK9Loiuf_artxzVz&t=203

She sounds like a soprano to me.

[gravityworm]

Dec 19, 2023 21:44:27 GMT Steingrim said:

youtu.be/Od_qcbw3f5Q?si=FK9Loiuf_artxzVz&t=203

She sounds like a soprano to me.

Μαρία Κάλλας sounds like a soprano to me.

[Steingrim]

Dec 20, 2023 1:59:44 GMT gravityworm said:

Dec 19, 2023 21:44:27 GMT Steingrim said:

youtu.be/Od_qcbw3f5Q?si=FK9Loiuf_artxzVz&t=203

She sounds like a soprano to me.

Μαρία Κάλλας sounds like a soprano to me.

Did you know that Maria Callas' chest voice has been described as baritonal ? That early on, tutors thought she might be a contralto ?

[gravityworm]

Dec 20, 2023 7:25:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Dec 20, 2023 1:59:44 GMT gravityworm said:

Μαρία Κάλλας sounds like a soprano to me.

Did you know that Maria Callas' chest voice has been described as baritonal ? That early on, tutors thought she might be a contralto ?

Oh, them tutors... I know someone who's voice was described by one tutor as a bass and by another tutor as an tenor...

[Steingrim]

Dec 20, 2023 11:15:35 GMT gravityworm said:

Dec 20, 2023 7:25:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Did you know that Maria Callas' chest voice has been described as baritonal ? That early on, tutors thought she might be a contralto ?

Oh, them tutors... I know someone who's voice was described by one tutor as a bass and by another tutor as an tenor...

Maria Callas sang three octaves in an operatic context and according to her vocal coach she had a low C. She's more of a candidate for being an alto-soprano or soprano assoluto than Floor Jansen is. But both are considered dramatic sopranos by many sources. Which is not a bad voice type for a metal singer.

[gravityworm]

And what did Katrin Sadolin say?

[BAZanine]

Dec 19, 2023 16:52:00 GMT gravityworm said:

Member Of: After Forever (1997-2009), Star One (2002-present), Revamp (2009-2016), Nightwish (2013-present), Northward (2017-present), Raskasta joulua (2017-present)
Voice Type: Mezzo - Soprano with additional extended range
Vocal Range: C3-F6

Again, on this forum whose mode of operations is largely disconnected from opera classifications, we gauge voice type based on timbre, not range. Range is at best an ancillary factor when we determine pop voice typings. It doesn't really matter to us if she has more overlap with the generally agreed-upon mezzo-soprano range when tonally she sounds like a soprano.

[gravityworm]

Dec 20, 2023 14:51:59 GMT BAZanine said:

Dec 19, 2023 16:52:00 GMT gravityworm said:

Member Of: After Forever (1997-2009), Star One (2002-present), Revamp (2009-2016), Nightwish (2013-present), Northward (2017-present), Raskasta joulua (2017-present)
Voice Type: Mezzo - Soprano with additional extended range
Vocal Range: C3-F6

Again, on this forum whose mode of operations is largely disconnected from opera classifications, we gauge voice type based on timbre, not range. Range is at best an ancillary factor when we determine pop voice typings. It doesn't really matter to us if she has more overlap with the generally agreed-upon mezzo-soprano range when tonally she sounds like a soprano.

So why use therms like "soprano", etc...

[Henny Macc]

This is exactly why we should just not list voice types in threads so that people can't come in here and start these arguments

[Baronessa]

Voice types are fun. Even in opera they are merely roles, based on the personality and age of the character being portrayed. Classical singers with certain kinds of voices are chosen to play those roles.

We do follow the operatic method of assigning voice types, contrary to popular belief, while asserting that singers are not "born with" a voice type. Voice types in pop reflect the personality (and sometimes age) of the singer themselves, not the character that they're portraying — because they are not a character. Pop singers were not born to play a role in pop music, they make their own roles, and we try to interpret those roles based on our personal opinions and precedents set by other singers we've heard.

People have gotten tired of voice type discussions, sure, but I think that's because it started out as something we didn't really think about. It just seemed cool. And now we've had the same argument we're having now for the 12th year in a row. I encourage using voice types if that's what you want to do, but I also recommend introspecting as to why you're using them. Keeping that in mind would hopefully lead to some more engaging discussions than this same one over and over again.

[Goober]

her first name is floor..... that's crazy

[Steingrim]

Dec 20, 2023 21:56:25 GMT Baronessa said:

Voice types are fun. Even in opera they are merely roles, based on the personality and age of the character being portrayed. Classical singers with certain kinds of voices are chosen to play those roles.

We do follow the operatic method of assigning voice types, contrary to popular belief, while asserting that singers are not "born with" a voice type. Voice types in pop reflect the personality (and sometimes age) of the singer themselves, not the character that they're portraying — because they are not a character. Pop singers were not born to play a role in pop music, they make their own roles, and we try to interpret those roles based on our personal opinions and precedents set by other singers we've heard.

People have gotten tired of voice type discussions, sure, but I think that's because it started out as something we didn't really think about. It just seemed cool. And now we've had the same argument we're having now for the 12th year in a row. I encourage using voice types if that's what you want to do, but I also recommend introspecting as to why you're using them. Keeping that in mind would hopefully lead to some more engaging discussions than this same one over and over again.

In opera, fachs define roles. For instance, the fach "basso buffo"means "comical bass". The basic voice types are more physical in nature. Basso in Italian simply means "low". Soprano means "over, on top of" (the others).

[Baronessa]

And a fach is literally just a range of notes. The fach has the singer, the singer does not have the fach.

[Steingrim]

Dec 21, 2023 10:59:21 GMT Baronessa said:

And a fach is literally just a range of notes. The fach has the singer, the singer does not have the fach.

It has an associated range that the singer is expected to sing well and with sufficient volume. And a weight (dramatic, lyric etc), a color/timbre and expected passaggi. The passaggi lead the voice to behave in a certain way when singing in that area.

The basic voice types : bass, baritone, tenor, contralto, mezzo, soprano - don't have roles associated with them. It is more likely that the tenor is a lover and the bass is a villain, for instance, but that is more of a matter of statistics.

Given the volume requirements in opera, it is likely that a pop singer is quite able to sing well substantially lower on a microphone than the voice type suggests that they would be able to in an opera setting. The note sung may also be "good enough" given its context in the song, even though it isn't up to operatic standards. Floor Jansen's bolded D3, for instance. Or baritones some times hitting octave 5 in chest voice. The introducton of additional registers makes things even more complicated. Fry notes and growls, superthin notes and screams used in heavy metal etc. 

[Baronessa]

Yes indeed. I mean, in opera Floor would doubtless be pigeonholed into a role and prevented from singing other parts. Even the 'countability' of notes, which we often discuss, is related to the operatic methods of assigning roles. The notes Floor couldn't project up to operatic standards wouldn't be 'countable' towards the fach that she'd be expected to sing in those circumstances.

The concept of fach is kind of messed up in opera; the idea that the singer is defined by a set of notes they can perform in a premade role is just not right in my opinion. It's up to the opinions of the composers which the singer has no control over — in other words other people define your notes for you. If we fully adhered to that method it would prevent us from learning about a significant portion of the human voice. That's why I actually prefer the pop voice typing, because in pop vocals the singer defines the notes and not the other way around.

[Steingrim]

Fachs help opera singers find roles that they can handle usefully. Outside of that context, they aren't that useful. But the various attributes involved may be interesting even so. If one avoids defining pop singers to death with them. Trying to place every male singer precisely somewhere along a line going from bass through tenor, according to a perceived timbre, for instance.

[Zedd Squared]

Dec 20, 2023 20:20:49 GMT Henny Macc said:

This is exactly why we should just not list voice types in threads so that people can't come in here and start these arguments

Yeah I'm starting to feel the same way, at least for this thread. I didn't realize there would be much reason to debate Floor's voice type of all people, but for whatever reason there's an ongoing history of female symphonic metal singers inevitably bringing this out in people at some point or another. Tbh, it'd probably still happen even if I removed the voice type, though I suppose it might be an effect act of symbolism if nothing else.

[gravityworm]

The tessitura has the singer, the singer does not have the tessitura?
Maybe...
Floor sounds to me like a mezzo - soprano

[Baronessa]

Ironically, it seems much more interesting to people to debate the voice type of someone like Floor, who is not a classical singer, as opposed to Tarja — the original singer in Nightwish — who is classically-trained.

[Steingrim]

Dec 21, 2023 16:41:26 GMT Baronessa said:

Ironically, it seems much more interesting to people to debate the voice type of someone like Floor, who is not a classical singer, as opposed to Tarja — the original singer in Nightwish — who is classically-trained.

Floor Jansen has studied opera for one year at the conservatory and kept studying classical singing one day a week after that. She does a lot of things right in the "o mio babbino caro" video that I linked above, according to an opera singer and vocal coach on youtube.

[Baronessa]

Yeah, but Tarja was like 6-years-old when she started training, like an old school opera kid. I guess she doesn't leave as much room for the imagination as Floor does.

[Steingrim]

Dec 21, 2023 17:09:11 GMT Baronessa said:

Yeah, but Tarja was like 6-years-old when she started training, like an old school opera kid. I guess she doesn't leave as much room for the imagination as Floor does.

Since Floor Jansen's studies started at the Dutch Rock Academy, I suppose there's a difference. But not necessarily in ability.

Interview from 2006 :

www.metalsymphony.com/interview-with-floor-jansen/

[gravityworm]

Dec 21, 2023 17:09:11 GMT Baronessa said:

Yeah, but Tarja was like 6-years-old when she started training, like an old school opera kid. I guess she doesn't leave as much room for the imagination as Floor does.

That's a surprise. She sounds like a person who had no opera style training at all. To my ears. She sounds like SLS trained singer to me.

[gravityworm]

Dec 20, 2023 7:25:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Did you know that Maria Callas' chest voice has been described as baritonal ? That early on, tutors thought she might be a contralto ?

At what age?  I would like to hear Kate Sadolin's opinion.

[Steingrim]

Mar 1, 2024 6:50:20 GMT gravityworm said:

Dec 20, 2023 7:25:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Did you know that Maria Callas' chest voice has been described as baritonal ? That early on, tutors thought she might be a contralto ?

At what age?  I would like to hear Kate Sadolin's opinion.

Do a search on her name and baritonal. For instance in this article, it's discussing her voice in general : 

www.radioswissclassic.ch/en/music-database/musician/18845a3201d8d0f8c8d122fc1fc6a78444a0a/biography