|
|
Post by Bink on Jan 26, 2023 2:06:27 GMT
lol the amount of scrutiny that people give threshold aesthetics on TRP these days is something I'll never understand. Just go with what makes the most sense for the singer's voice man, who cares how pretty it is or isn't Mehh... ok, so there are a few reasons why I will keep Coverdale at G4 and not G♯4. 1. NotabilityDoes Coverdale have any notable money notes at G4? The answer is yes! In fact it's one of my favourite notes from him, this absolutely immaculate sustained G4 from "Burn" That's reason one 2. SustainabilityIt does not take an expert to show that Coverdale has declined vocally over the years, as in our head admin's own words! - "He sounds like a frog now." His technique for most of higher range involves screaming the absolute shit out of his lungs, where most of his notes B♭4 and above, he doesn't seem very comfortable, instead using a mixed tone, such as a few bolds like the "She's a Woman" D5s, or say, virtually every note above C5. Even a few notes at C5 such as the bold ones on "Stay With Me" he sounds rather blocked off. I looked at some live performances of some of my favourite Whitesnake songs such as "Ain't Gonna Cry No More", his voice sounds extremely strained on those higher fourth and lower fifth octave notes 3. PlacementFor almost all intensive purposes. I will almost always absolutely refuse to start a male singer's highs at A4. The only time I have started a male singer's highs at A4 was Dave Davies, and the only reason I started him that high was because his low range is BAD. He has to grumble his down to only B♭2. Now for singers I have starting at G♯4, we have Jani Lane. I don't think it takes an expert to tell that Jani Lane, is not as low placed as Coverdale, regularly speaking, Jani makes it into the fifth octave with quite ease. In fact, a lot of singers around the same placement as Jani Lane, especially in his genre, ALSO start at G♯4 (e.g. Paul Stanley, Joe Elliot even Layne Staley and Chris mothertrucking Cornell). In actuality for Coverdale, he is quite a low placed singer, to the point where if he didn't use his extreme screamy thinned out technique, I probably would have placed him even lower on thresholds bar. But there is also another argument that goes in my favour for this discussion, and his name is Ian Gillan, if you don't know who Ian Gillan is, before David Coverdale and Glenn Hughes, he was the singer for Deep Purple, he is renowned for his absolutely INSANE screamy technique in the higher fifth octave and regularly belts his way up the fourth octave as well. And what are his thresholds you may ask? D3/G4. Now sure in his old age his voice also declined in a way that made him not able to use his higher voice as much anymore, but you know who else applies to this? Coverdale does! Coverdale, I would say is and was always lower placed than most singers starting at G4, it's just he uses techniques to make his voice go way up there .................. And finally as I stated, D3/G♯4 is also just an ugly threshold, so yeah. TL;DR: Coverdale is kept at D3/G4 because of technique, placement and other factors such as his very splendid G4 in "Burn"
|
|
|
Post by Homelander on Jan 26, 2023 2:21:18 GMT
Very well put, Bink. I agree with D3 and G4 thresholds.
|
|
Henny Macc
Moderator
Offline
Posts: 1,763
Likes: 1,685
Join Date: April 2020
Favourite singer: Steve
|
Post by Henny Macc on Jan 28, 2023 4:04:21 GMT
lol the amount of scrutiny that people give threshold aesthetics on TRP these days is something I'll never understand. Just go with what makes the most sense for the singer's voice man, who cares how pretty it is or isn't Mehh... ok, so there are a few reasons why I will keep Coverdale at G4 and not G♯4. 1. NotabilityDoes Coverdale have any notable money notes at G4? The answer is yes! In fact it's one of my favourite notes from him, this absolutely immaculate sustained G4 from "Burn" That's reason one 2. SustainabilityIt does not take an expert to show that Coverdale has declined vocally over the years, as in our head admin's own words! - "He sounds like a frog now." His technique for most of higher range involves screaming the absolute shit out of his lungs, where most of his notes B♭4 and above, he doesn't seem very comfortable, instead using a mixed tone, such as a few bolds like the "She's a Woman" D5s, or say, virtually every note above C5. Even a few notes at C5 such as the bold ones on "Stay With Me" he sounds rather blocked off. I looked at some live performances of some of my favourite Whitesnake songs such as "Ain't Gonna Cry No More", his voice sounds extremely strained on those higher fourth and lower fifth octave notes 3. PlacementFor almost all intensive purposes. I will almost always absolutely refuse to start a male singer's highs at A4. The only time I have started a male singer's highs at A4 was Dave Davies, and the only reason I started him that high was because his low range is BAD. He has to grumble his down to only B♭2. Now for singers I have starting at G♯4, we have Jani Lane. I don't think it takes an expert to tell that Jani Lane, is not as low placed as Coverdale, regularly speaking, Jani makes it into the fifth octave with quite ease. In fact, a lot of singers around the same placement as Jani Lane, especially in his genre, ALSO start at G♯4 (e.g. Paul Stanley, Joe Elliot even Layne Staley and Chris mothertrucking Cornell). In actuality for Coverdale, he is quite a low placed singer, to the point where if he didn't use his extreme screamy thinned out technique, I probably would have placed him even lower on thresholds bar. But there is also another argument that goes in my favour for this discussion, and his name is Ian Gillan, if you don't know who Ian Gillan is, before David Coverdale and Glenn Hughes, he was the singer for Deep Purple, he is renowned for his absolutely INSANE screamy technique in the higher fifth octave and regularly belts his way up the fourth octave as well. And what are his thresholds you may ask? D3/G4. Now sure in his old age his voice also declined in a way that made him not able to use his higher voice as much anymore, but you know who else applies to this? Coverdale does! Coverdale, I would say is and was always lower placed than most singers starting at G4, it's just he uses techniques to make his voice go way up there .................. And finally as I stated, D3/G♯4 is also just an ugly threshold, so yeah. TL;DR: Coverdale is kept at D3/G4 because of technique, placement and other factors such as his very splendid G4 in "Burn" I think you might be overthinking it a bit, but I'll hand it to you that if he has money notes at G4 we can still count them. I don't really think of the sustained one in "Burn" as that much of a money note personally, but to each their own. As far as the placement argument goes - that can be one that's less black-and-white than it appears, because while yes, you would THINK placement would be an indicator of where a singer's thresholds should start, it's a much more widely variable factor than it appears due to the large number of different ways that singers with the same placement can treat their voice. For instance, I also have a pretty low voice, possibly around the same placement as Coverdale's, but for someone like me it would make much more sense to count my high range as starting around E4/F4 because of the way I treat those notes. Coverdale has developed so much comfort in that range that he can just breeze through it like it's nothing, along with a few of the notes above it. Sometimes he really doesn't even sound like he's putting effort in until around A4ish. It's a classic case of vocal skill defying placement - the same argument as to why we shouldn't really get fixated on these kinds of singers' voice types, because they basically break the system with the way they use their voices. By this same logic, I don't think we should determine singers' thresholds by comparing them to other singers either. Like the fact that Ian Gillan's thresholds are G4 and D3 should have no bearing on this argument in my opinion, because Gillan has a different voice that functions in different ways than Coverdale's. Coverdale has (or at least had) always had a very consistent, well-blended high range that sounded like one register from the bottom of it to the top. Gillan, even at his peak, had some belty highs in the fourth octave, usually went into a softer falsetto around the lower fifth octave, and then had a powerful screaming range from D5 or so upwards. So in his case it's definitely necessary to include more fourth octave notes to properly showcase more of his mixed voice range. For Coverdale that's not quite as necessary, because his G4s effectively function as the same register as some of his notes C5 and above. So while I'm not saying G4s should not be counted as highs for him, they definitely shouldn't be counted on the grounds that we count them for Ian Gillan as well. Also, while I don't think Coverdale is someone whose highs should start at A4, I additionally wanted to comment on the part where you said that you will almost always refuse to start a male singer's highs at A4, because I disagree there on general principle. Try notewatching more glam metal and power metal vocalists who just sing ridiculously stratospherically high all the time and you may start to notice how unnecessary counting A4s is for some of them, and how they really just don't treat G♯4s as high notes most of the time. I agree that on paper it may sound like a stretch, but that's really the level of freaky highness we're dealing with for some singers' tessituras in these genres. And if you go even more extreme beyond that, you'll find rare cases of male singers whose tessituras are so crazy high that it actually makes sense to start their thresholds at B4, like Daniel Heiman and Cedric Bixler-Zavala. So just take some of that into consideration for determining thresholds as well, I suppose. I guess in conclusion, feel free to keep Coverdale's highs starting at G4 if you so please; I just hope you do so for the right reasons.
|
|
|
Post by Homelander on Jan 28, 2023 4:13:32 GMT
You guys are overthinking this.
|
|
|
Post by Bink on Jan 28, 2023 4:24:00 GMT
Mehh... ok, so there are a few reasons why I will keep Coverdale at G4 and not G♯4. 1. NotabilityDoes Coverdale have any notable money notes at G4? The answer is yes! In fact it's one of my favourite notes from him, this absolutely immaculate sustained G4 from "Burn" That's reason one 2. SustainabilityIt does not take an expert to show that Coverdale has declined vocally over the years, as in our head admin's own words! - "He sounds like a frog now." His technique for most of higher range involves screaming the absolute shit out of his lungs, where most of his notes B♭4 and above, he doesn't seem very comfortable, instead using a mixed tone, such as a few bolds like the "She's a Woman" D5s, or say, virtually every note above C5. Even a few notes at C5 such as the bold ones on "Stay With Me" he sounds rather blocked off. I looked at some live performances of some of my favourite Whitesnake songs such as "Ain't Gonna Cry No More", his voice sounds extremely strained on those higher fourth and lower fifth octave notes 3. PlacementFor almost all intensive purposes. I will almost always absolutely refuse to start a male singer's highs at A4. The only time I have started a male singer's highs at A4 was Dave Davies, and the only reason I started him that high was because his low range is BAD. He has to grumble his down to only B♭2. Now for singers I have starting at G♯4, we have Jani Lane. I don't think it takes an expert to tell that Jani Lane, is not as low placed as Coverdale, regularly speaking, Jani makes it into the fifth octave with quite ease. In fact, a lot of singers around the same placement as Jani Lane, especially in his genre, ALSO start at G♯4 (e.g. Paul Stanley, Joe Elliot even Layne Staley and Chris mothertrucking Cornell). In actuality for Coverdale, he is quite a low placed singer, to the point where if he didn't use his extreme screamy thinned out technique, I probably would have placed him even lower on thresholds bar. But there is also another argument that goes in my favour for this discussion, and his name is Ian Gillan, if you don't know who Ian Gillan is, before David Coverdale and Glenn Hughes, he was the singer for Deep Purple, he is renowned for his absolutely INSANE screamy technique in the higher fifth octave and regularly belts his way up the fourth octave as well. And what are his thresholds you may ask? D3/G4. Now sure in his old age his voice also declined in a way that made him not able to use his higher voice as much anymore, but you know who else applies to this? Coverdale does! Coverdale, I would say is and was always lower placed than most singers starting at G4, it's just he uses techniques to make his voice go way up there .................. And finally as I stated, D3/G♯4 is also just an ugly threshold, so yeah. TL;DR: Coverdale is kept at D3/G4 because of technique, placement and other factors such as his very splendid G4 in "Burn" I think you might be overthinking it a bit, but I'll hand it to you that if he has money notes at G4 we can still count them. I don't really think of the sustained one in "Burn" as that much of a money note personally, but to each their own. As far as the placement argument goes - that can be one that's less black-and-white than it appears, because while yes, you would THINK placement would be an indicator of where a singer's thresholds should start, it's a much more widely variable factor than it appears due to the large number of different ways that singers with the same placement can treat their voice. For instance, I also have a pretty low voice, possibly around the same placement as Coverdale's, but for someone like me it would make much more sense to count my high range as starting around E4/F4 because of the way I treat those notes. Coverdale has developed so much comfort in that range that he can just breeze through it like it's nothing, along with a few of the notes above it. Sometimes he really doesn't even sound like he's putting effort in until around A4ish. It's a classic case of vocal skill defying placement - the same argument as to why we shouldn't really get fixated on these kinds of singers' voice types, because they basically break the system with the way they use their voices. By this same logic, I don't think we should determine singers' thresholds by comparing them to other singers either. Like the fact that Ian Gillan's thresholds are G4 and D3 should have no bearing on this argument in my opinion, because Gillan has a different voice that functions in different ways than Coverdale's. Coverdale has (or at least had) always had a very consistent, well-blended high range that sounded like one register from the bottom of it to the top. Gillan, even at his peak, had some belty highs in the fourth octave, usually went into a softer falsetto around the lower fifth octave, and then had a powerful screaming range from D5 or so upwards. So in his case it's definitely necessary to include more fourth octave notes to properly showcase more of his mixed voice range. For Coverdale that's not quite as necessary, because his G4s effectively function as the same register as some of his notes C5 and above. So while I'm not saying G4s should not be counted as highs for him, they definitely shouldn't be counted on the grounds that we count them for Ian Gillan as well. Also, while I don't think Coverdale is someone whose highs should start at A4, I additionally wanted to comment on the part where you said that you will almost always refuse to start a male singer's highs at A4, because I disagree there on general principle. Try notewatching more glam metal and power metal vocalists who just sing ridiculously stratospherically high all the time and you may start to notice how unnecessary counting A4s is for some of them, and how they really just don't treat G♯4s as high notes most of the time. I agree that on paper it may sound like a stretch, but that's really the level of freaky highness we're dealing with for some singers' tessituras in these genres. And if you go even more extreme beyond that, you'll find rare cases of male singers whose tessituras are so crazy high that it actually makes sense to start their thresholds at B4, like Daniel Heiman and Cedric Bixler-Zavala. So just take some of that into consideration for determining thresholds as well, I suppose. I guess in conclusion, feel free to keep Coverdale's highs starting at G4 if you so please; I just hope you do so for the right reasons. Looking back at it, fair enough honestly, you do make some great points. I agree the Ian Gillan argument was also a bit overstated, but Coverdale does not use the same register for most of the notes at G4 from C5 and above, however, the chesty tone Coverdale brings also might explain where the heavy amount of confusion in register would come from. I'll try to keep my main reasoning short and sweet for keeping him at G4 - Coverdale is a singer that I feel would not be appropriate to start at G♯4 because of the reasons I stated before, and the fact that other singers I have placed at G4, stay there for similar reasons, and while other people may disagree, I personally think G4 is a suitable place to start his high notes, including the fact that in his old age, his range is fading I was on a bit of a tangent here, so I'm gonna rephrase myself on the A4 subject thing. To be honest, most singers I'd find whose voices are interesting and utilize high notes usually have their placement at G4, and for the most part, singers whose voices are appropriate for thresholds A4 and above, which is a few of them, don't personally interest me, which is where the tangent came from. There are various male singers out there whose high notes appropriately would start at A4 or higher, I am just not super interested in. Which is where the rather cut and dry statement came from. I hope this explains a bit of what I was going on about, if it doesn't uhh... idk, you can ask me about it.
|
|
|
Post by Bink on Jun 17, 2023 1:13:29 GMT
Update: Best Vocal Performances list is now a top 20 rather than just a top 10, wanted to include more good vocal performance and felt rather than changing it a billion times, just make it bigger
also yes I have updated the threadpic again, I cannot promise this will be the last time
|
|
|
surfnsnipe
Vocal Novice
Offline
Posts: 14
Likes: 3
Join Date: September 2023
Favourite singer: James LaBrie
|
Post by surfnsnipe on Nov 15, 2023 20:54:57 GMT
Update: Best Vocal Performances list is now a top 20 rather than just a top 10, wanted to include more good vocal performance and felt rather than changing it a billion times, just make it bigger also yes I have updated the threadpic again, I cannot promise this will be the last timeAppreciate it. Found lots of good songs from those lists. Does anyone else consider High Ball Shooter to be a top 20 Coverdale performance?
|
|
|
|