Do E and B have sharps? (554 views)

[sunshine]

I don't usually see them and they aren't on the piano, but some people write E♯ and B♯. What exactly does it mean?

[Macca]

E♯ and B♯ = F and C

[sunshine]

Sept 17, 2023 1:22:07 GMT Macca said:

E♯ and B♯ = F and C

Thanks, why do people write them like that when there's another note?

[Steingrim]

Sept 17, 2023 20:29:05 GMT sunshine said:

Sept 17, 2023 1:22:07 GMT Macca said:

E♯ and B♯ = F and C

Thanks, why do people write them like that when there's another note?

Did you know that F## is a note in the E# minor key ?

www.wikiwand.com/en/E-sharp_minor#E-sharp_minor

[Baronessa]

Okay, so in order to provide some actual answers on this thread, let me just link this Adam Neely video.



"One fundamental standard of Western musical spelling is that for all major and minor scales, every letter name must be present in alphabetical order. [...] All the letters, in order, every time." So, in order to 'spell' the C♯ major scale you would have to write the notes down like so: C♯, D♯, E♯, F♯, G♯, A♯, and B♯.

You should watch that video all the way through, it's very good. I personally wasn't too sure of this rule either until Adam just explained it matter-of-factly like that.

[burak27]

Practically, E# is F and B# is C because the difference between E-F and B-C is equal to a half step so they are pretty much interchangable.

In theory, they are used as a placeholder for each other in different keys. For example, the scale of C# major has both E# and F#. In this case it is an E# instead of an F because it'd be confusing to notate sheet music if there were both F naturals and F sharps throughout a piece of music.

[Homelander]

Jan 24, 2024 20:32:08 GMT burak27 said:

Practically, E# is F and B# is C because the difference between E-F and B-C is equal to a half step so they are pretty much interchangable.

In theory, they are used as a placeholder for each other in different keys. For example, the scale of C# major has both E# and F#. In this case it is an E# instead of an F because it'd be confusing to notate sheet music if there were both F naturals and F sharps throughout a piece of music.

This is the best explanation I've seen so far.

[Steingrim]

Jan 24, 2024 20:32:08 GMT burak27 said:

Practically, E# is F and B# is C because the difference between E-F and B-C is equal to a half step so they are pretty much interchangable.

In theory, they are used as a placeholder for each other in different keys. For example, the scale of C# major has both E# and F#. In this case it is an E# instead of an F because it'd be confusing to notate sheet music if there were both F naturals and F sharps throughout a piece of music.

Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C - is the typical notation for the mentioned major scale. Which avoids using the same letter twice, and also things like E# and B#.

[burak27]

Jan 25, 2024 13:16:04 GMT Steingrim said:

Jan 24, 2024 20:32:08 GMT burak27 said:

Practically, E# is F and B# is C because the difference between E-F and B-C is equal to a half step so they are pretty much interchangable.

In theory, they are used as a placeholder for each other in different keys. For example, the scale of C# major has both E# and F#. In this case it is an E# instead of an F because it'd be confusing to notate sheet music if there were both F naturals and F sharps throughout a piece of music.

Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C - is the typical notation for the mentioned major scale. Which avoids using the same letter twice, and also things like E# and B#.

 I stand corrected   When I sent that I couldn't think of a better example. Now that I think about it, maybe harmonic minor scales would be a better example ? i.e how F# harmonic minor has F# and E#

[Steingrim]

Jan 25, 2024 16:19:11 GMT burak27 said:

Jan 25, 2024 13:16:04 GMT Steingrim said:

Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C - is the typical notation for the mentioned major scale. Which avoids using the same letter twice, and also things like E# and B#.

 I stand corrected   When I sent that I couldn't think of a better example. Now that I think about it, maybe harmonic minor scales would be a better example ? i.e how F# harmonic minor has F# and E#

Harmonic minor, yeah that's strange enough for that.

[burak27]

Jan 25, 2024 16:46:09 GMT Steingrim said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:19:11 GMT burak27 said:

 I stand corrected   When I sent that I couldn't think of a better example. Now that I think about it, maybe harmonic minor scales would be a better example ? i.e how F# harmonic minor has F# and E#

No, it ends on an E.

How so ? Isn't it F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E#, F# ?

[Steingrim]

Jan 25, 2024 16:47:57 GMT burak27 said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:46:09 GMT Steingrim said:

No, it ends on an E.

How so ? Isn't it F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E#, F# ?

Yeah, I hadn't figured out what "harmonic" meant.

[burak27]

Jan 25, 2024 16:48:56 GMT Steingrim said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:47:57 GMT burak27 said:

How so ? Isn't it F#, G#, A, B, C#, D, E#, F# ?

Yeah, I hadn't figured out what "harmonic" meant.

Harmonic minor is the same as natural minor, except for a raised 7th to allow better resolution to the root note. F# natural minor (or just F# minor) would have an E natural, but F# harmonic minor sharpens it to a E# so that it resolves better into F#

[Steingrim]

Jan 25, 2024 16:52:34 GMT burak27 said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:48:56 GMT Steingrim said:

Yeah, I hadn't figured out what "harmonic" meant.

Harmonic minor is the same as natural minor, except for a raised 7th to allow better resolution to the root note. F# natural minor (or just F# minor) would have an E natural, but F# harmonic minor sharpens it to a E# so that it resolves better into F#

The "slightly arabic" scale. In my mind. F#-G-A#-B-C#-D-E# would be the full blown one. There are three semitones in a row there, if continued. But it does work out notationally in the key of E, by chance. 

[Macca]

Jan 26, 2024 9:42:13 GMT Steingrim said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:52:34 GMT burak27 said:

Harmonic minor is the same as natural minor, except for a raised 7th to allow better resolution to the root note. F# natural minor (or just F# minor) would have an E natural, but F# harmonic minor sharpens it to a E# so that it resolves better into F#

The "slightly arabic" scale. In my mind. F#-G-A#-B-C#-D-E# would be the full blown one. There are three semitones in a row there, if continued. But it does work out notationally in the key of E, by chance. 

After doing some research this scale is called the Byzantine scale

[burak27]

Jan 26, 2024 9:42:13 GMT Steingrim said:

Jan 25, 2024 16:52:34 GMT burak27 said:

Harmonic minor is the same as natural minor, except for a raised 7th to allow better resolution to the root note. F# natural minor (or just F# minor) would have an E natural, but F# harmonic minor sharpens it to a E# so that it resolves better into F#

The "slightly arabic" scale. In my mind. F#-G-A#-B-C#-D-E# would be the full blown one. There are three semitones in a row there, if continued. But it does work out notationally in the key of E, by chance. 

If I recall correctly, that one is called "double harmonic minor" or "Hungarian/gypsy minor". It has a very nice sound imo.

I think calling it Arabic is very accurate, it really does have a Middle Eastern sound  and fun fact, in Turkish music the harmonic scale is actually called "Arabic (hicaz) scale"

[Macca]

Jan 26, 2024 18:41:51 GMT burak27 said:

Jan 26, 2024 9:42:13 GMT Steingrim said:

The "slightly arabic" scale. In my mind. F#-G-A#-B-C#-D-E# would be the full blown one. There are three semitones in a row there, if continued. But it does work out notationally in the key of E, by chance. 

If I recall correctly, that one is called "double harmonic minor" or "Hungarian/gypsy minor". It has a very nice sound imo.

I think calling it Arabic is very accurate, it really does have a Middle Eastern sound  and fun fact, in Turkish music the harmonic scale is actually called "Arabic (hicaz) scale"

I called it the Byzantine scale in the previous post

[Goober]

Jan 26, 2024 18:39:24 GMT Macca said:

Jan 26, 2024 9:42:13 GMT Steingrim said:

The "slightly arabic" scale. In my mind. F#-G-A#-B-C#-D-E# would be the full blown one. There are three semitones in a row there, if continued. But it does work out notationally in the key of E, by chance. 

After doing some research this scale is called the Byzantine scale

[burak27]

Jan 26, 2024 18:49:47 GMT Macca said:

Jan 26, 2024 18:41:51 GMT burak27 said:

If I recall correctly, that one is called "double harmonic minor" or "Hungarian/gypsy minor". It has a very nice sound imo.

I think calling it Arabic is very accurate, it really does have a Middle Eastern sound  and fun fact, in Turkish music the harmonic scale is actually called "Arabic (hicaz) scale"

I called it the Byzantine scale in the previous post

Sorry, I just saw your post after sending mine. I think Byzantine scale is also another name, yeah. I kind of find it funny because the original topic of the post is how E# is F and how different things in music mean the same thing, and here we are finding multiple names for the same scale haha