Chris Cornell (58,831 views)

[halloweenjack95]

Jan 28, 2022 8:36:12 GMT motorist said:

Jan 28, 2022 5:25:50 GMT Henny Macc said:

While I overall agree with you about Cornell being a baritone, this is a pretty misleading comparison. Peter Steele managed to scream a G5 with enough tone for us to consider it acceptable to count, but he would never have been able to handle anywhere near the kinds of fifth octave vocal melodies that Cornell was constantly belting with incredible consistency and control. Jim Morrison also didn't have much in the ways of fifth octave melody singing; if I remember correctly most of his notes above C5 are just isolated screams and shouts and stuff.

No arguments there, I mean I've only ever heard another Mike Patton sing clear words up to G5 and it still isn't as developed as Cornell's highs. But I wasn't really trying to equate their high notes, it was more confusion about how his developed upper range makes him less of a baritone, when it just demonstrates an element his vocal style which others still may have been able to pursue (no way of knowing for sure, but still that only proves my point about it not changing voice type). Cornell can't rap like Anthony Kiedis, or yelp in the sixth octave like Jim Morrison. Neither of those styles demonstrate a difference in voice type, and I don't see how Cornell's more developed high notes demonstrate that either. I mean Mark Lanegan has more developed low notes than a lot of basses, but clearly he's not a bass.

Very well said and your Mark Lanegan example is on Point.

[Henny Macc]

Jan 28, 2022 8:36:12 GMT motorist said:

Jan 28, 2022 5:25:50 GMT Henny Macc said:

While I overall agree with you about Cornell being a baritone, this is a pretty misleading comparison. Peter Steele managed to scream a G5 with enough tone for us to consider it acceptable to count, but he would never have been able to handle anywhere near the kinds of fifth octave vocal melodies that Cornell was constantly belting with incredible consistency and control. Jim Morrison also didn't have much in the ways of fifth octave melody singing; if I remember correctly most of his notes above C5 are just isolated screams and shouts and stuff.

No arguments there, I mean I've only ever heard another Mike Patton sing clear words up to G5 and it still isn't as developed as Cornell's highs. But I wasn't really trying to equate their high notes, it was more confusion about how his developed upper range makes him less of a baritone, when it just demonstrates an element his vocal style which others still may have been able to pursue (no way of knowing for sure, but still that only proves my point about it not changing voice type). Cornell can't rap like Anthony Kiedis, or yelp in the sixth octave like Jim Morrison. Neither of those styles demonstrate a difference in voice type, and I don't see how Cornell's more developed high notes demonstrate that either. I mean Mark Lanegan has more developed low notes than a lot of basses, but clearly he's not a bass.

Sure yeah, I mainly just wanted to call out the fallacies of the examples you picked to support that argument. But yes, people like to call singers like Cornell tenors because they're so used to hearing them sing high all the time and they think "can hit lots of high notes, must = tenor, right?". But then when you hear how strong some of their low notes are as well, you can also use that same logic of "can hit really strong low notes, must = baritone or lower, right?" on the other end.

The easy way out is to just accept that voice types aren't terribly relevant for singers with that wide of ranges anyway, because after a certain point they can effectively sing as whichever voice part they want. Voice types are generally more appropriate for singers with limited ranges that actually need to be categorized as one to help them figure out which box they better fall under.

[fella]

Jun 19, 2021 14:35:24 GMT kaji said:

Jun 19, 2021 7:52:58 GMT fedemayhemile said:

It's understandable for people to constantly ask and that nobody is completely sure about his voice type, because he clearly had an unusual freak voice and nobody can understand how he had so much volume/resonance/weight in both high and low notes, he apparently didn't even warm up, same as Dio, i'm always gonna think that he was probably a very low flexible tenor because of how constantly and seemly comfortable he sang high with the same resonance + in his solo acoustic live shows he clearly demonstrated that he could belt real clean and chesty mixed C5/D5's meaning without it being a clear heavy head mix, human nature is unusual and unpredictable so you never know, and i think Baritones probably want him to be one just because they need him to gain the confidence to keep practicing high notes, at the end of the day we'll never know for a FACT, same as with Freddie, because the only way would be to ask him directly what his passaggio note is or what is he doing to pull that sound/weight off, but y' know, now that's not an option, hah.

Neither had an unusual or ‘freak’ voice. In fact Freddie’s low range wasn’t even that good... It was alright but nothing out of ordinary. I do find it weird that people have these debates about voices like these which aren’t even necessarily ‘freak’ voices yet no one ever argues about actual freak voices like Lorraine Stancil, Mary Martin, Melonie Daniels, Alex Newell etc. And technically speaking the term ‘chesty mix’ would be incorrect due to the mix term referring to the M2 laryngeal vibratory mechanism use, and chest M1. You cannot use two LVMs at once. And neither would know their passaggi as to truly know your passaggi you must at very least know how to properly do voce chiusa. Passaggi aren’t your ‘breaks’.

That being said, Chris is a tenor to me and I don’t hear how someone could mistake him for a real baritone. A manufactured baritone (Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett etc.) sure, but not a natural baritone.

Chris is for sure a baritone. How do I know? I am a bass-baritone and I have a similar tone and vocal weight to his, and the same type of high note tessitura: vocaroo.com/1i5VL7P9ZXg7

[kaji]

Feb 17, 2022 0:32:06 GMT fella said:

Jun 19, 2021 14:35:24 GMT kaji said:

Neither had an unusual or ‘freak’ voice. In fact Freddie’s low range wasn’t even that good... It was alright but nothing out of ordinary. I do find it weird that people have these debates about voices like these which aren’t even necessarily ‘freak’ voices yet no one ever argues about actual freak voices like Lorraine Stancil, Mary Martin, Melonie Daniels, Alex Newell etc. And technically speaking the term ‘chesty mix’ would be incorrect due to the mix term referring to the M2 laryngeal vibratory mechanism use, and chest M1. You cannot use two LVMs at once. And neither would know their passaggi as to truly know your passaggi you must at very least know how to properly do voce chiusa. Passaggi aren’t your ‘breaks’.

That being said, Chris is a tenor to me and I don’t hear how someone could mistake him for a real baritone. A manufactured baritone (Johnny Mathis, Tony Bennett etc.) sure, but not a natural baritone.

Chris is for sure a baritone. How do I know? I am a bass-baritone and I have a similar tone and vocal weight to his, and the same type of high note tessitura: vocaroo.com/1i5VL7P9ZXg7

Does not sound like a bass-baritone. 

[fella]

Feb 17, 2022 1:35:39 GMT kaji said:

Feb 17, 2022 0:32:06 GMT fella said:

Chris is for sure a baritone. How do I know? I am a bass-baritone and I have a similar tone and vocal weight to his, and the same type of high note tessitura: vocaroo.com/1i5VL7P9ZXg7

Does not sound like a bass-baritone. 

Listen to my low notes here: voca.ro/1eJJndf7idRY

You can also hear how heavy and dense I sound on the B4 and Eb5 afterwards, because of my dark timbre.

[fella]

Feb 17, 2022 1:35:39 GMT kaji said:

Feb 17, 2022 0:32:06 GMT fella said:

Chris is for sure a baritone. How do I know? I am a bass-baritone and I have a similar tone and vocal weight to his, and the same type of high note tessitura: vocaroo.com/1i5VL7P9ZXg7

Does not sound like a bass-baritone. 

Another detail concerning an incorrect information that was mentioned, mix voice mechanism in men is actually produced in M1 configuration, not M2, as this study shows:

www.estudiosfonicos.cchs.csic.es/asig2/153/Roubeau_et_al_08_Lx_Vibratory_Mechanisms.pdf

"The voix mixte (mid and middle voice) is most

often produced in men in mechanism M1 and in

women in mechanism M2. "

[kaji]

Feb 17, 2022 21:04:24 GMT fella said:

Feb 17, 2022 1:35:39 GMT kaji said:

Does not sound like a bass-baritone. 

Another detail concerning an incorrect information that was mentioned, mix voice mechanism in men is actually produced in M1 configuration, not M2, as this study shows:

www.estudiosfonicos.cchs.csic.es/asig2/153/Roubeau_et_al_08_Lx_Vibratory_Mechanisms.pdf

"The voix mixte (mid and middle voice) is most

often produced in men in mechanism M1 and in

women in mechanism M2. "

Taken out of context and the study itself uses a misleading term. What Estill called voix mixte (1970s), what even people all the way back in 1800s called voix mixte was always produced within M2 (for both men and women at that). What they are talking about in the article you listed is the middle voice in classical singing which indeed is M1 for men and M2 for women. But mixed voice =/= middle voice. They are misusing the classical terminology there. I don't blame them though as there's a lot of confusing sources on this subject, and most do not study the older texts which make it fairly clear. 

And no, you do not sound like a bass-baritone at all to me. You do sound like a baritone however. I am hearing plenty of voce ingolata in the lower register excerpt which creates some additional density but does not sound natural to me. I quite like the sustains though. Having lower register extending that low in full voice is not unheard of from even higher voices. I know of several tenors with similar lower registers (classical tenors mind you) and one soprano with a sizeable low E. Quite an impressive higher register. I don't really agree that it'd be usable in classical (tremolo is a big part of why not). But it does sound usable for other genres. I could see it being used well in rock in particular or contemporary gospel. Roy Hamilton had a similar higher register. 

There is two classical baritones I know of with genuinely usable classical range between the high B-flat and the high C - Joseph Shore (unfortunately passed away recently; he was a great teacher as he was a great singer; he was kind enough to answer my questions when I emailed him a couple years ago) and Igor Gorin (albeit Igor has not recorded notes in full voice above the high B). Sherill Milnes and Cornell MacNeil possessed usable high B-flats as well, and Milnes was said to have a high C but then again Sherill himself admitted he was first classed as a tenor by his teacher and chose to sing baritone as a preference. 

[fella]

Feb 17, 2022 21:53:23 GMT kaji said:

Feb 17, 2022 21:04:24 GMT fella said:

Another detail concerning an incorrect information that was mentioned, mix voice mechanism in men is actually produced in M1 configuration, not M2, as this study shows:

www.estudiosfonicos.cchs.csic.es/asig2/153/Roubeau_et_al_08_Lx_Vibratory_Mechanisms.pdf

"The voix mixte (mid and middle voice) is most

often produced in men in mechanism M1 and in

women in mechanism M2. "

Taken out of context and the study itself uses a misleading term. What Estill called voix mixte (1970s), what even people all the way back in 1800s called voix mixte was always produced within M2 (for both men and women at that). What they are talking about in the article you listed is the middle voice in classical singing which indeed is M1 for men and M2 for women. But mixed voice =/= middle voice. They are misusing the classical terminology there. I don't blame them though as there's a lot of confusing sources on this subject, and most do not study the older texts which make it fairly clear. 

And no, you do not sound like a bass-baritone at all to me. You do sound like a baritone however. I am hearing plenty of voce ingolata in the lower register excerpt which creates some additional density but does not sound natural to me. I quite like the sustains though. Having lower register extending that low in full voice is not unheard of from even higher voices. I know of several tenors with similar lower registers (classical tenors mind you) and one soprano with a sizeable low E. Quite an impressive higher register. I don't really agree that it'd be usable in classical (tremolo is a big part of why not). But it does sound usable for other genres. I could see it being used well in rock in particular or contemporary gospel. Roy Hamilton had a similar higher register. 

There is two classical baritones I know of with genuinely usable classical range between the high B-flat and the high C - Joseph Shore (unfortunately passed away recently; he was a great teacher as he was a great singer; he was kind enough to answer my questions when I emailed him a couple years ago) and Igor Gorin (albeit Igor has not recorded notes in full voice above the high B). Sherill Milnes and Cornell MacNeil possessed usable high B-flats as well, and Milnes was said to have a high C but then again Sherill himself admitted he was first classed as a tenor by his teacher and chose to sing baritone as a preference. 

 Even if you are correct about me being a baritone instead of a bass-baritone, it would still pretty much confirm that Chris Cornell is a baritone himself. If I put my mind into it, i could really make myself sound just like him  without that much effort, cause his tone, vocal weight and tessitura are naturally similar to mine, as you can hear by my Soundgarden recording, in which I actually sound chestier than him in the high notes.
About my high register not being usable for opera, I will have to disagree, listen to this actual old school tenor high C, right before mine for comparison sake, his vibrato is actually close to mine, which means if I had some real operatic training (I've learned by myself) I would surely be able to reproduce it: vocaroo.com/1gMDqNk22dcA

[fella]

That being said, an user in Reddit that had long term experience with actual Opera said that I´m a spinto tenor and that I do not sound like a legit baritone either, but this is another opinion that didn´t convince me entirely, but this would be the only possibility for Cornell to be a tenor instead of a baritone.

imgur.com/a/dwQ2rB4

[fella]

Feb 17, 2022 22:37:05 GMT fella said:

Feb 17, 2022 21:53:23 GMT kaji said:

Taken out of context and the study itself uses a misleading term. What Estill called voix mixte (1970s), what even people all the way back in 1800s called voix mixte was always produced within M2 (for both men and women at that). What they are talking about in the article you listed is the middle voice in classical singing which indeed is M1 for men and M2 for women. But mixed voice =/= middle voice. They are misusing the classical terminology there. I don't blame them though as there's a lot of confusing sources on this subject, and most do not study the older texts which make it fairly clear. 

And no, you do not sound like a bass-baritone at all to me. You do sound like a baritone however. I am hearing plenty of voce ingolata in the lower register excerpt which creates some additional density but does not sound natural to me. I quite like the sustains though. Having lower register extending that low in full voice is not unheard of from even higher voices. I know of several tenors with similar lower registers (classical tenors mind you) and one soprano with a sizeable low E. Quite an impressive higher register. I don't really agree that it'd be usable in classical (tremolo is a big part of why not). But it does sound usable for other genres. I could see it being used well in rock in particular or contemporary gospel. Roy Hamilton had a similar higher register. 

There is two classical baritones I know of with genuinely usable classical range between the high B-flat and the high C - Joseph Shore (unfortunately passed away recently; he was a great teacher as he was a great singer; he was kind enough to answer my questions when I emailed him a couple years ago) and Igor Gorin (albeit Igor has not recorded notes in full voice above the high B). Sherill Milnes and Cornell MacNeil possessed usable high B-flats as well, and Milnes was said to have a high C but then again Sherill himself admitted he was first classed as a tenor by his teacher and chose to sing baritone as a preference. 

Even if you are correct about me being a baritone instead of a bass-baritone, it would still pretty much confirm that Chris Cornell is a baritone himself. If I put my mind into it, i could really make myself sound just like him without that much effort, cause his tone, vocal weight and tessitura are naturally similar to mine, as you can hear by my Soundgarden recording, in which I actually sound chestier than him in the high notes.

About my high register not being usable for opera, I will have to disagree, listen to this actual old school tenor high C, right before mine for comparison sake, his vibrato is actually close to mine, which means if I had some real operatic training (I've learned by myself) I would surely be able to reproduce it: vocaroo.com/1gMDqNk22dcA

[kaji]

Feb 17, 2022 22:37:05 GMT fella said:

Feb 17, 2022 21:53:23 GMT kaji said:

Taken out of context and the study itself uses a misleading term. What Estill called voix mixte (1970s), what even people all the way back in 1800s called voix mixte was always produced within M2 (for both men and women at that). What they are talking about in the article you listed is the middle voice in classical singing which indeed is M1 for men and M2 for women. But mixed voice =/= middle voice. They are misusing the classical terminology there. I don't blame them though as there's a lot of confusing sources on this subject, and most do not study the older texts which make it fairly clear. 

And no, you do not sound like a bass-baritone at all to me. You do sound like a baritone however. I am hearing plenty of voce ingolata in the lower register excerpt which creates some additional density but does not sound natural to me. I quite like the sustains though. Having lower register extending that low in full voice is not unheard of from even higher voices. I know of several tenors with similar lower registers (classical tenors mind you) and one soprano with a sizeable low E. Quite an impressive higher register. I don't really agree that it'd be usable in classical (tremolo is a big part of why not). But it does sound usable for other genres. I could see it being used well in rock in particular or contemporary gospel. Roy Hamilton had a similar higher register. 

There is two classical baritones I know of with genuinely usable classical range between the high B-flat and the high C - Joseph Shore (unfortunately passed away recently; he was a great teacher as he was a great singer; he was kind enough to answer my questions when I emailed him a couple years ago) and Igor Gorin (albeit Igor has not recorded notes in full voice above the high B). Sherill Milnes and Cornell MacNeil possessed usable high B-flats as well, and Milnes was said to have a high C but then again Sherill himself admitted he was first classed as a tenor by his teacher and chose to sing baritone as a preference. 

 Even if you are correct about me being a baritone instead of a bass-baritone, it would still pretty much confirm that Chris Cornell is a baritone himself. If I put my mind into it, i could really make myself sound just like him  without that much effort, cause his tone, vocal weight and tessitura are naturally similar to mine, as you can hear by my Soundgarden recording, in which I actually sound chestier than him in the high notes.
About my high register not being usable for opera, I will have to disagree, listen to this actual old school tenor high C, right before mine for comparison sake, his vibrato is actually close to mine, which means if I had some real operatic training (I've learned by myself) I would surely be able to reproduce it: vocaroo.com/1gMDqNk22dcA

Bass-baritone in classical voice classification systems is not necessarily its own classification but rather a term for **either** a dark, low baritone or a high, brighter-voiced bass singing in specific rep. The term came about because those roles require bass tessitura lower register while also going up into the the higher baritone tessitura. But many also say that it is one and the same with the Italian basso-cantante (which is more modern terminology is the same thing as a lyric bass). When one says they're a bass-baritone in classical they typically mean they are a baritone (and far more rarely a bass) specialised in that repertoire. Bizet wrote roles for a 'bass-baritone', as did Mozart and Puccini, and Wagner, although in rarely if ever those roles will be listed as 'bass-baritone' in the scores. They typically will be listed as bass or baritone. 

The reason I say this is because - if you call yourself a bass-baritone, you'd at very least would be describing yourself as a low, dark, rich baritone voice that has far more density (this mostly pertains to the speech inflection range; taking true density upwards is harder for voices with lower tessitura due to the difference in the vocal tract size) than a higher baritone voice, let alone than any tenor voice. Such voices however are uncommon and audibly low voices. Wintley Phipps, Ed Ames (he had a brighter voice when he was young however) are two contemporary singers who were trained as dramatic baritones. Wintley is often cited as a bass but his training is that of a baritone and tessitura along with density also audibly baritone if you listen to his discography. Ed had a more flexible voice that allowed him even to sing tenor but he did not venture up there often. And your voice would also need to have significantly more density than a dark, lower-set tenor. Three good examples of such are two classical true tenore drammatico or di forza or robusto (and heldentenor in the German fach system) - Sergio Franchi (notice he does a low G with extreme comfort and projection at one point) and Lauritz Melchior; and one contemporary tenor of the current Broadway scene Joshua Henry (and him singing in a more traditional style). 

Moreover classifying a singer's voice by just comparing it with your own seems a bit silly to me. 

About the vibrato - the big difference in the clarity of your vibrato (which does not have anything to do with it being tremolo) and the singer you linked is your tongue position. Your tongue seems to be getting in the way of the clarity there. I do not know what causes tremolo for you as it can be caused by many, many different things but many do say that overbrightening your tone can cause it (as is the case with Brendon Urie I am pretty sure). You also do not sound like you are engaging in a classical cover technique in most of those notes which is why I said it would not be that suitable for classical. But it is certainly very impressive but still quite different from a good classical tenor singing that high or a baritone singing that high in terms of the formant adjustment. I don't think it'd take you long to adjust into that setting though.

[fella]

Feb 18, 2022 1:14:18 GMT kaji said:

Feb 17, 2022 22:37:05 GMT fella said:

 Even if you are correct about me being a baritone instead of a bass-baritone, it would still pretty much confirm that Chris Cornell is a baritone himself. If I put my mind into it, i could really make myself sound just like him  without that much effort, cause his tone, vocal weight and tessitura are naturally similar to mine, as you can hear by my Soundgarden recording, in which I actually sound chestier than him in the high notes.
About my high register not being usable for opera, I will have to disagree, listen to this actual old school tenor high C, right before mine for comparison sake, his vibrato is actually close to mine, which means if I had some real operatic training (I've learned by myself) I would surely be able to reproduce it: vocaroo.com/1gMDqNk22dcA

Bass-baritone in classical voice classification systems is not necessarily its own classification but rather a term for **either** a dark, low baritone or a high, brighter-voiced bass singing in specific rep. The term came about because those roles require bass tessitura lower register while also going up into the the higher baritone tessitura. But many also say that it is one and the same with the Italian basso-cantante (which is more modern terminology is the same thing as a lyric bass). When one says they're a bass-baritone in classical they typically mean they are a baritone (and far more rarely a bass) specialised in that repertoire. Bizet wrote roles for a 'bass-baritone', as did Mozart and Puccini, and Wagner, although in rarely if ever those roles will be listed as 'bass-baritone' in the scores. They typically will be listed as bass or baritone. 

The reason I say this is because - if you call yourself a bass-baritone, you'd at very least would be describing yourself as a low, dark, rich baritone voice that has far more density (this mostly pertains to the speech inflection range; taking true density upwards is harder for voices with lower tessitura due to the difference in the vocal tract size) than a higher baritone voice, let alone than any tenor voice. Such voices however are uncommon and audibly low voices. Wintley Phipps, Ed Ames (he had a brighter voice when he was young however) are two contemporary singers who were trained as dramatic baritones. Wintley is often cited as a bass but his training is that of a baritone and tessitura along with density also audibly baritone if you listen to his discography. Ed had a more flexible voice that allowed him even to sing tenor but he did not venture up there often. And your voice would also need to have significantly more density than a dark, lower-set tenor. Three good examples of such are two classical true tenore drammatico or di forza or robusto (and heldentenor in the German fach system) - Sergio Franchi (notice he does a low G with extreme comfort and projection at one point) and Lauritz Melchior; and one contemporary tenor of the current Broadway scene Joshua Henry (and him singing in a more traditional style). 

Moreover classifying a singer's voice by just comparing it with your own seems a bit silly to me. 

About the vibrato - the big difference in the clarity of your vibrato (which does not have anything to do with it being tremolo) and the singer you linked is your tongue position. Your tongue seems to be getting in the way of the clarity there. I do not know what causes tremolo for you as it can be caused by many, many different things but many do say that overbrightening your tone can cause it (as is the case with Brendon Urie I am pretty sure). You also do not sound like you are engaging in a classical cover technique in most of those notes which is why I said it would not be that suitable for classical. But it is certainly very impressive but still quite different from a good classical tenor singing that high or a baritone singing that high in terms of the formant adjustment. I don't think it'd take you long to adjust into that setting though.

   Chris Merrits high C sounds way more heady than the average operatic high C I usually hear, interesting. Thats a very strong low G from Sergio indeed, sound baritone-like. I admit I think I don´t have an operatically usable G2, in terms of sheer volume. My low notes in the other audio were recorded three inches away from the cellphone mic. I can do a strong solid G3 and lower with a microphone (I can almost pass for a bass with a microfone), but volume wise I can only do really forte loud notes that fill a room without depressing my tongue at B2/C3+. About the tongue and cover thing, as I said I was never trained classically so I have no real clue how the classical vocal configuration works, I just do it randomly till it sounds somewhat operatic lol. I think (and hope lol) I only have this tongue issue when trying to do an operatic voice, but now that you mentioned it, it would be good to know if you can hear this same issue on a non-classical approach, so here are some broadway-esque Tonny Bennet high notes: vocaroo.com/1d8x4R3XbiH7

EDIT: i just noticed thats a Eb5 that Merrit did, not a high C, sorry for the mistake. My hearing is worse than I thought lol.

[fedemayhemile]

My point is that we can't know for sure because unusual voices/tones do exist, i mean i'm a Tenor for sure and can sing a good C2 and belt a chesty E5 like every day (i'm not flexing, i just have a flexible larynx, it's just for example, have you heard the YouTuber jacksepticeye's range?, he is an obvious Light Tenor), range doesn't mean anything, or either he was a low tenor or a very unusual in nature and flexible high baritone, which is the unlikely case compared to most baritones known in music or history, i mean, there's Geoff Tate from Queensrÿche too, but nobody questions that he is a light baritone because he started losing his flexibility when he was pretty young, as lower voices lower much more than higher one as you grow old, but Cornell never stopped or showed real signs of discomfort in the high notes as he grew older, he simply continued, so it makes no probabilistic/biological sense at all, what we know for an objetive fact is that he indeed had an unusual tone which generates all this dillema, damn you depressive junkie Cornell, why did you have to end yourself?.

[fella]

Feb 19, 2022 12:43:43 GMT fedemayhemile said:

My point is that we can't know for sure because unusual voices/tones do exist, i mean i'm a Tenor for sure and can sing a good C2 and belt a chesty E5 like every day (i'm not flexing, i just have a flexible larynx, it's just for example, have you heard the YouTuber jacksepticeye's range?, he is an obvious Light Tenor), range doesn't mean anything, or either he was a low tenor or a very unusual in nature and flexible high baritone, which is the unlikely case compared to most baritones known in music or history, i mean, there's Geoff Tate from Queensrÿche too, but nobody questions that he is a light baritone because he started losing his flexibility when he was pretty young, as lower voices lower much more than higher one as you grow old, but Cornell never stopped or showed real signs of discomfort in the high notes as he grew older, he simply continued, so it makes no probabilistic/biological sense at all, what we know for an objetive fact is that he indeed had an unusual tone which generates all this dillema, damn you depressive junkie Cornell, why did you have to end yourself?.

First of all this method of saying someone who developed a higher range with intense practice cannot keep it through the decades because "biology" would not allow this is absolutely simplistic and binary. Many people develop flexibilty in other aspects of their bodies and keep it to their 50s, you just cant come and affirm that if someone developed something that they werent born with, they WILL loose it with age, and that you know the probability of this happening or not. Beside that, I do not understand why you think that (maybe you didnt look enough into his live later stuff), but he did show signs of discomfort in his high range as he grew older, its a pretty known topic that his voice sounded more and more strained as time went by, to the point he many times started using less weight and less distortion in his high notes in several live ocasions. Saying that he kept the same easy and comfort as when he was young is entirely incorrect, its honestly surprising you didnt note this, its such a common topic. He was already clearly struggling in his audioslave area to keep such weighty high notes,in his solo era live he was thinning his high notes alot of the time and you could hear his voice getting more blown during many perfomances. In Show me how to live ( youtu.be/2w2Kw10G2nc ) he was never able to sound as chesty and comfortable as he does in the cd version, not in a single perfomance that is. Even in Be Yourself he always sound like struggling to keep the meaty tone in the chorus abd you can hear it getting severely heady.
He sounds like a high baritone because most of his stuff in the very end of the fourth octave is highly, highly twangy and distorted to keep a heavier TA sound, he never chest belted (not heavy mix, chest belt) a clean note in that area, he is always using some degree of distortion to increase harmonics. There are many blurry case but Cornell isn't one of them, he show the clear signs of being a natural lighter high baritone, unlike for example the fake baritone Tonny Bennet who could get meaty chest B4s without the use of distortion to create more fake TA engagement nor such overuse of twang. Anyway, just listen to Chris Liepe (a high baritone coach) singing Cornell here at 0:48 youtu.be/yeuKpLLf96w
He sounds also really close to Cornell and you can clearly hear he uses the same technique Cornell used to try to mask the heady aspect of his high notes. If anything he manages even better to fake a tenor high range than Cornell did.

[halloweenjack95]

Feb 19, 2022 19:11:44 GMT fella said:

Feb 19, 2022 12:43:43 GMT fedemayhemile said:

My point is that we can't know for sure because unusual voices/tones do exist, i mean i'm a Tenor for sure and can sing a good C2 and belt a chesty E5 like every day (i'm not flexing, i just have a flexible larynx, it's just for example, have you heard the YouTuber jacksepticeye's range?, he is an obvious Light Tenor), range doesn't mean anything, or either he was a low tenor or a very unusual in nature and flexible high baritone, which is the unlikely case compared to most baritones known in music or history, i mean, there's Geoff Tate from Queensrÿche too, but nobody questions that he is a light baritone because he started losing his flexibility when he was pretty young, as lower voices lower much more than higher one as you grow old, but Cornell never stopped or showed real signs of discomfort in the high notes as he grew older, he simply continued, so it makes no probabilistic/biological sense at all, what we know for an objetive fact is that he indeed had an unusual tone which generates all this dillema, damn you depressive junkie Cornell, why did you have to end yourself?.

First of all this method of saying someone who developed a higher range with intense practice cannot keep it through the decades because "biology" would not allow this is absolutely simplistic and binary. Many people develop flexibilty in other aspects of their bodies and keep it to their 50s, you just cant come and affirm that if someone developed something that they werent born with, they WILL loose it with age, and that you know the probability of this happening or not. Beside that, I do not understand why you think that (maybe you didnt look enough into his live later stuff), but he did show signs of discomfort in his high range as he grew older, its a pretty known topic that his voice sounded more and more strained as time went by, to the point he many times started using less weight and less distortion in his high notes in several live ocasions. Saying that he kept the same easy and comfort as when he was young is entirely incorrect, its honestly surprising you didnt note this, its such a common topic. He was already clearly struggling in his audioslave area to keep such weighty high notes,in his solo era live he was thinning his high notes alot of the time and you could hear his voice getting more blown during many perfomances. In Show me how to live ( youtu.be/2w2Kw10G2nc ) he was never able to sound as chesty and comfortable as he does in the cd version, not in a single perfomance that is. Even in Be Yourself he always sound like struggling to keep the meaty tone in the chorus abd you can hear it getting severely heady.
He sounds like a high baritone because most of his stuff in the very end of the fourth octave is highly, highly twangy and distorted to keep a heavier TA sound, he never chest belted (not heavy mix, chest belt) a clean note in that area, he is always using some degree of distortion to increase harmonics. There are many blurry case but Cornell isn't one of them, he show the clear signs of being a natural lighter high baritone, unlike for example the fake baritone Tonny Bennet who could get meaty chest B4s without the use of distortion to create more fake TA engagement nor such overuse of twang. Anyway, just listen to Chris Liepe (a high baritone coach) singing Cornell here at 0:48 youtu.be/yeuKpLLf96w
He sounds also really close to Cornell and you can clearly hear he uses the same technique Cornell used to try to mask the heady aspect of his high notes. If anything he manages even better to fake a tenor high range than Cornell did.

Of course he couldn't hit all the high notes as easily as he did in 1990 or 1992 for example. Just look at his Temple of the Dog concerts from 2016. But he didn't need to change the key and was Still able to pull it off.
And his decline definitely didn't started during the Audioslave era. He was a vocal powerhouse during this period.

One major thing that made the discomfort in his higher range noticeable is that he stopped warming up before concerts and his complete wrong prescribed Medication.

[fella]

Feb 19, 2022 20:07:53 GMT halloweenjack95 said:

Feb 19, 2022 19:11:44 GMT fella said:

First of all this method of saying someone who developed a higher range with intense practice cannot keep it through the decades because "biology" would not allow this is absolutely simplistic and binary. Many people develop flexibilty in other aspects of their bodies and keep it to their 50s, you just cant come and affirm that if someone developed something that they werent born with, they WILL loose it with age, and that you know the probability of this happening or not. Beside that, I do not understand why you think that (maybe you didnt look enough into his live later stuff), but he did show signs of discomfort in his high range as he grew older, its a pretty known topic that his voice sounded more and more strained as time went by, to the point he many times started using less weight and less distortion in his high notes in several live ocasions. Saying that he kept the same easy and comfort as when he was young is entirely incorrect, its honestly surprising you didnt note this, its such a common topic. He was already clearly struggling in his audioslave area to keep such weighty high notes,in his solo era live he was thinning his high notes alot of the time and you could hear his voice getting more blown during many perfomances. In Show me how to live ( youtu.be/2w2Kw10G2nc ) he was never able to sound as chesty and comfortable as he does in the cd version, not in a single perfomance that is. Even in Be Yourself he always sound like struggling to keep the meaty tone in the chorus abd you can hear it getting severely heady.
He sounds like a high baritone because most of his stuff in the very end of the fourth octave is highly, highly twangy and distorted to keep a heavier TA sound, he never chest belted (not heavy mix, chest belt) a clean note in that area, he is always using some degree of distortion to increase harmonics. There are many blurry case but Cornell isn't one of them, he show the clear signs of being a natural lighter high baritone, unlike for example the fake baritone Tonny Bennet who could get meaty chest B4s without the use of distortion to create more fake TA engagement nor such overuse of twang. Anyway, just listen to Chris Liepe (a high baritone coach) singing Cornell here at 0:48 youtu.be/yeuKpLLf96w
He sounds also really close to Cornell and you can clearly hear he uses the same technique Cornell used to try to mask the heady aspect of his high notes. If anything he manages even better to fake a tenor high range than Cornell did.

Of course he couldn't hit all the high notes as easily as he did in 1990 or 1992 for example. Just look at his Temple of the Dog concerts from 2016. But he didn't need to change the key and was Still able to pull it off.
And his decline definitely didn't started during the Audioslave era. He was a vocal powerhouse during this period.

One major thing that made the discomfort in his higher range noticeable is that he stopped warming up before concerts and his complete wrong prescribed Medication.

He already was declining in his audioslave era, its crazy to say otherwise. He was struggling in this same video I just posted. You can honestly listen to this and tell me he isnt struggling here? REALLY? youtu.be/mVzoa0ytijk
Man this is insane, at some points you could literally hear his voice breaking in the cochise chorus. If you can't hear something just that blatant ,there is no point keeping up this debate.

[fedemayhemile]

First, he had nodules during the Audioslave era, that's why he stopped using so much distortion because he was doing that wrong, Second, nobody can keep the intesity/energy of when they were in their 20's, not even Dio could to such a level of constant touring, Third, Liepe is obviously a Tenor that does not know what he's talking about, i understand that he has good intentions, but he is very obviously an improvisational self-taught musician that seems to avoid doing a basic objective research on how the human voice biologically works, all because he thinks "it's not that important as long as you feel the music", no, that's unproductive nonsense, and no, i'm not saying that it's impossible to keep up a skill as you get older but the body is gonna make it harder as it's not natural for your body + the existance of bad habits which fucks everything up for any voice type, but that didn't really happen to Chris with the general state of his voice during the later years, simply listen to the constant C5 belting in Wide Awake live 2011, no baritone is gonna sound as effortless and chesty as Chris does in there and he was already pretty "old".

[halloweenjack95]

Feb 19, 2022 20:26:33 GMT fella said:

Feb 19, 2022 20:07:53 GMT halloweenjack95 said:

Of course he couldn't hit all the high notes as easily as he did in 1990 or 1992 for example. Just look at his Temple of the Dog concerts from 2016. But he didn't need to change the key and was Still able to pull it off.
And his decline definitely didn't started during the Audioslave era. He was a vocal powerhouse during this period.

One major thing that made the discomfort in his higher range noticeable is that he stopped warming up before concerts and his complete wrong prescribed Medication.

He already was declining in his audioslave era, its crazy to say otherwise. He was struggling in this same video I just posted. You can honestly listen to this and tell me he isnt struggling here? REALLY? youtu.be/mVzoa0ytijk
Man this is insane, at some points you could literally hear his voice breaking in the cochise chorus. If you can't hear something just that blatant ,there is no point keeping up this debate.

First of all I literally agreed with your overall statement. Just not with everything.
This live version is overall not good. But it's pretty easy to link probably the worst live version of the Song and then just claim "there is no point in keeping up this debate". Because there are great live versions of "Show me how to live".
Chris had good days and he also had bad days.
As he got older he couldn't keep the same intensity or energy like he showcased in his TOTD or early Soundgarden days.
But he was overall pretty consistent. Even in his later years.

[fella]

Feb 19, 2022 20:52:33 GMT fedemayhemile said:

First, he had nodules during the Audioslave era, that's why he stopped using so much distortion because he was doing that wrong, Second, nobody can keep the intesity/energy of when they were in their 20's, not even Dio could to such a level of constant touring, Third, Liepe is obviously a Tenor that does not know what he's talking about, i understand that he has good intentions, but he is very obviously an improvisational self-taught musician that seems to avoid doing a basic objective reserach on how the human voice biologically works, all because he thinks "it's not that important as long as you feel the music", no, that's unproductive nonsense, and no, i'm not saying that it's impossible to keep up a skill as you get older but the body is gonna make it harder as it's not natural for your body + the existance of bad habits which fucks everything up for any voice type, but that didn't really happen to Chris with the general state of his voice during the later years, simply listen to the constant C5 belting in Wide Awake live 2011, no baritone is gonna sound as effortless and chesty as Chris does in there and he was already pretty "old".

He doesnt sound effortless at all at that part. What you consider effortless is actually blatantly constricted pinched sound, you are confusing power (due the huge distortion and glotal pressure) with being effortless. You can perfectly sound powerful and not sound effortless at tthe same time, which is.Chris case. Any high baritone can sound that powerful at a C5 using that amount of -distortion-. If he did a clean sound he woud sound much, much thinner. Man you have verdi baritones in opera singing clean powerful A4s and even Bb4, without the help of -distortion-. They could surely sing just as powerful as Chris there, which is just one step higher, using tons of distortion and without the need to have the perfect chiaroscuro. You have a very limited view on how close to low tenors higher baritones are, when you take out the need for an operatic sound they can push the sound even closer.

[fedemayhemile]

If you are talking about this performance (Wide Awake - Live Washington, DC on April 17, 2011 or Wide Awake - Live Argentina 2011 - Another example), he uses slight amounts of distortion, not "tons", and his belting sounds pretty clean and comfortable in here, btw, based on what i know the verdi baritone is almost the same as a low tenor but with an lighter tone, not comparable to the skill/tessitura of a regular baritone, their voices are "smaller", though i'd have to listen to one sing a Tenor note to compare the sounds and factually know it.

[fella]

Feb 19, 2022 21:44:22 GMT fedemayhemile said:

If you are talking about this performance (Wide Awake - Live Washington, DC on April 17, 2011 or Wide Awake - Live Argentina 2011 - Another example), he uses slight amounts of distortion, not "tons", and his belting sounds pretty clean and comfortable in here, btw, based on what i know the verdi baritone is almost the same as a low tenor but with an lighter tone, not comparable to the skill/tessitura of a regular baritone, their voices are "smaller", though i'd have to listen to one sing a Tenor note to compare the sounds and factually know it.

I dont think you have an accurate notion of what a clean sound is, he sounds far, far from clean in both videos, he has significant amount of distortion in both, had he used less distortion he would sound much thinner than a tenor at this area. A verdi baritone is a type of dramatic baritone, which means the tone is deeper and heavier than a high baritone, a verdi baritone is actually deeper sounding than a regular baritone, but with a developed top. This is a verdi baritone, see how heavy he sounds: youtu.be/GLmMSzv6ngA
Chris Cornell has literally no chest clean/undistorted note in the C5 area.

[kaji]

Feb 19, 2022 23:58:22 GMT fella said:

Feb 19, 2022 21:44:22 GMT fedemayhemile said:

If you are talking about this performance (Wide Awake - Live Washington, DC on April 17, 2011 or Wide Awake - Live Argentina 2011 - Another example), he uses slight amounts of distortion, not "tons", and his belting sounds pretty clean and comfortable in here, btw, based on what i know the verdi baritone is almost the same as a low tenor but with an lighter tone, not comparable to the skill/tessitura of a regular baritone, their voices are "smaller", though i'd have to listen to one sing a Tenor note to compare the sounds and factually know it.

I dont think you have an accurate notion of what a clean sound is, he sounds far, far from clean in both videos, he has significant amount of distortion in both, had he used less distortion he would sound much thinner than a tenor at this area. A verdi baritone is a type of dramatic baritone, which means the tone is deeper and heavier than a high baritone, a verdi baritone is actually deeper sounding than a regular baritone, but with a developed top. This is a verdi baritone, see how heavy he sounds: youtu.be/GLmMSzv6ngA
Chris Cornell has literally no chest clean/undistorted note in the C5 area.

While you're right on Verdian baritone being a darker, lower baritone with extended top - it is technically supposed to be a lirico-spinto instrument if you read into the texts on Italian classification systems from the 1800s and 1900s. Smaller than that of a dramatic baritone, and higher. But I mention this to say - Joseph Shore was a Verdian baritone but only in trade, as a specialisation. His actual voice type and tessitura was more akin to a lyric baritone who overdarkened his voice and pushed his voice far too high (you may notice a fairly high valsalva engagement in better audio quality clips as he goes above a G). I also do not agree on that high B being full. It is indeed powerful but to call it weighty or full would be incorrect. It has very little metal and he's this close to cracking and flipping into M2. I've not seen him do a genuine weighty sound past A4 which is normal for a baritone. There's very few baritones who do that sound up there and even those who do typically can't sustain it. Gilbert Price is one of the very few (high lyric baritone) and he could do a high C similar to Igor Gorin's B-flat. But that's an unusual case, and he was also very close to a tenor so that adds a bit to that.

Also it is not the vocal weight itself that will be greater with a lower voice, but the overall thickness/density of the voice which is different from the weight. It is more of a texture that stays with the voice even when you configure your vocal tract shaping. Your unique vocal fingerprint (of course it is a stretch to say this cannot be modified but there's limitations of course). Singers who actually take vocal weight upwards are typically those with a higher tessitura and a shorter vocal tract (Whitney Houston is a good example of this). 

[fedemayhemile]

Yeah, i meant to say a Baryton-Martin not a Verdi, i confused the names, my bad there, if you know of any confirmed baritone that can sing a heavy comfortable C5 link it please, check out this version of Wide Awake (Chris Cornell - Teatro Gran Rex), i don't hear any distortion whatsoever there and he indeed sounds "thinner" in that one, btw, if you hear a TON of distortion or far from clean in the two previous examples, you are either deaf or in denial, it's a slight layer to make it sound more emotional.

[kaji]

I honestly cannot think of any baritone with a genuinely heavy C5 that's usable... let alone one that's comfortable.

[fedemayhemile]

fella - I'm gonna recommend you this Musician (Bohemian Vocal Studio - TOTD - Call me a Dog), he is a vocal coach, check him doing a cover of "Call me a Dog" and killing it, you can see he sounds more head/ballanced mixed but still very controlled and heavy enough, he is a baritone without a doubt, his cover of Mark Lanegan's Slip Away (Mad Season) and he himself acknowledging the fact confirms it, he is proof that's it's completely possible to do it but you can clearly see his comfort is lower because of his body lenguage and that his voice loses a lot a darkness/weight compared to his regular tone, he clearly has a lot of technique and years of practice under his belt knowing exactly what he is consciously doing every moment, cheers.