Elvis Presley (50,457 views)

[Deleted]

Nice to see the A5 from “Mystery Train” being counted. Also, that E1 sounds pretty good, especially compared to his other growls.

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

I agree that the E1 sounds good, but it also sounds like the kind of growl that's achieved by taking a pitch and using the false cords to create an undertone that makes it sound an octave lower. So there's a good chance it's actually an E2.

[Danerage]

that E1 sounds like whisper with false-chord activation, to me. Like, the same way Dr. Claw's voice is done. So I wouldn't necessarily call it an E2 with 'undertones' either, as there isn't much (any?) vocal cord activation at all.

[Platypus]

Jun 7, 2022 21:23:48 GMT Danerage said:

that E1 sounds like whisper with false-chord activation, to me. Like, the same way Dr. Claw's voice is done. So I wouldn't necessarily call it an E2 with 'undertones' either, as there isn't much (any?) vocal cord activation at all.

yeah, that sounds pretty dead on

[motorist]

Since the comment got deleted along with all that other stuff, reminder that Hennessy Macklemore III pointed out the Eb1 is actually a Bb1.
Doesn't really change anything about the note's countability but it better explains why it was strong in comparison to the F#1, and might get rid of what I perceive to be (perhaps foolishly) bias from when the note was thought to be lower than all of his other growls.

['S]

Jun 7, 2022 23:16:44 GMT motorist said:

Since the comment got deleted along with all that other stuff

Don't worry, not deleted, just moved on to better pastures

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

Jun 7, 2022 21:23:48 GMT Danerage said:

that E1 sounds like whisper with false-chord activation, to me. Like, the same way Dr. Claw's voice is done. So I wouldn't necessarily call it an E2 with 'undertones' either, as there isn't much (any?) vocal cord activation at all.

Sure, that's probably a more accurate assessment of it. I would still say that the pitch sounds pretty clearly like an E, but if there's little to no vocal cord activation involved, it sounds like we should probably treat this note the same way we treat inhaled whistle notes, for instance.

Also yes let's not forget that the alleged E♭1 is actual a B♭1

[Baronessa]

Jun 8, 2022 18:04:44 GMT Hennessy Macklemore III said:

Jun 7, 2022 21:23:48 GMT Danerage said:

that E1 sounds like whisper with false-chord activation, to me. Like, the same way Dr. Claw's voice is done. So I wouldn't necessarily call it an E2 with 'undertones' either, as there isn't much (any?) vocal cord activation at all.

Sure, that's probably a more accurate assessment of it. I would still say that the pitch sounds pretty clearly like an E, but if there's little to no vocal cord activation involved, it sounds like we should probably treat this note the same way we treat inhaled whistle notes, for instance.

This would require discarding all growls and I'm not sure we want to do that. We did start acknowledging subharmonic singing (and other types of legitimate extended low register techniques) as the result of a discussion about Geoff Castellucci and I think it's fair to put these into the same category.

[Platypus]

Jun 8, 2022 18:04:44 GMT Hennessy Macklemore III said:

Jun 7, 2022 21:23:48 GMT Danerage said:

that E1 sounds like whisper with false-chord activation, to me. Like, the same way Dr. Claw's voice is done. So I wouldn't necessarily call it an E2 with 'undertones' either, as there isn't much (any?) vocal cord activation at all.

Sure, that's probably a more accurate assessment of it. I would still say that the pitch sounds pretty clearly like an E, but if there's little to no vocal cord activation involved, it sounds like we should probably treat this note the same way we treat inhaled whistle notes, for instance.

Also yes let's not forget that the alleged E♭1 is actual a B♭1

Oh boy, I’ve been waiting for someone to bring up this again, because I feel it’s something I never got complete closure on.

Alright, growls. Unlike the more general usage of the term, in TRP we generally use the term growl to refer to a specific technique, namely “false-cord growls” (or “vestibular-fold growls” if you’re a dweeb).

Are growls produced using the vocal cords?

No. Or at least, not necessarily. In the case of most the acapella fellas, and good ol’ Elvis here, the actual vocal cords are probably not directly involved when performing these growls. It would actually be quite reasonable to stop there and say flat out that “no vocal cords” = “no service”. But I’d say it’s a little more complicated than that.

1)
The vocal cords and false vocal cords are controlled by a lot of the same muscles. Because they are controlled by a lot of the same muscles it’s possible to use them in tandem, and it’s actually quite common to do so, especially for people like voice actors (see Christian Bale - Batman).
Throat singing (specifically Kargyraa) works on this principle, as it is dependent on an exact 1:2 ratio between the vibrations on the false cords and the vocal cords. For example, a throat sung A1 (55hz) needs your vocal cords to vibrate at A2 (110hz) and your false cords to vibrate at A1 (55hz).

So even though they are different “things”, they operate based on a lot of the same stuff

2)

One thing about Elvis’ growls is that they sound very frail, airy and quiet. That’s because they are. But that is because Elvis is using a relaxed, safe technique, not all false-cord growls sound like that. In fact, here’s a good example of a strong false cord growl.

Throughout this passage King is using his vocal cords and false vocal cords simultaneously, but towards the end of the passage he switches into an almost pure false cord approach. When he slides down to the A1 there’s next to no actual vocal cord involvement. The reason it sounds stronger than Elvis’ approach is that King is using a lot more air to produce those notes. This is not a safe way to do it, but for short segments like that it’s fine.

Keep in mind, when I say “using his vocal cords and false vocal cords simultaneously”, that is a very different thing to mixing. False cords are a separate piece of flesh, you can’t mix into it. But even if it’s not exactly a part of the vocal cords, it’s part of the vocal cord extended family, and the use of false cords in singing/vocalisation in general has been prolific enough that I think extending our reach to include false cord-reliant approaches could be warranted for singers who demonstrate sufficient control of those types of techniques, for which I think Elvis qualifies.

TL;DR: yes ladies, I’m single

[Danerage]

Most people skip over techniques like growl or inhale screams because they physically hurt and send you into a coughing fit when done incorrectly. Most people don't play around with it enough to develop much of a sense of control. Platypus' post is very accurate to my understanding, and I agree that singers who demonstrate sufficient control over techniques like these should probably have it count as a part of their vocal range.

[Steingrim]

Jun 8, 2022 19:03:59 GMT Baronessa said:

Jun 8, 2022 18:04:44 GMT Hennessy Macklemore III said:

Sure, that's probably a more accurate assessment of it. I would still say that the pitch sounds pretty clearly like an E, but if there's little to no vocal cord activation involved, it sounds like we should probably treat this note the same way we treat inhaled whistle notes, for instance.

This would require discarding all growls and I'm not sure we want to do that. We did start acknowledging subharmonic singing (and other types of legitimate extended low register techniques) as the result of a discussion about Geoff Castellucci and I think it's fair to put these into the same category.

A youtuber and choral bass called bass2yang is so good at that technique that they allow him to use it to sing F1 in a large choir, where the regular octavists would use regular vocal fry. Castellucci's has a pretty decent subharmonic F1 too, as mentioned on the current last page of his thread. Just like with regular vocal fry the quality depends heavily on how low one takes it. The main reason why it isn't used extensively is that most singers find it hard to learn and even harder to get consistent results with it.

[SailorBlue]

Personally, I count subharmonics as the fundamental. Because iirc there isn't actually any part of the vocal chords that vibrate at the octave down pitch. It's just an illusion created by producing 2 pitches at once with your vocal cords. I forgot the interval the 2nd note is relative to the fundamental (plat help me out here), but I do remember that it is higher than the fundamental. Because of this, I don't count the illusioned pitch at all, as it doesn't exist.

So basically, acapella basses can all collectively get fucked lmao.

[Baronessa]

No, but it is creating a new note in a musical context. It does not work in the same way as the harmonic series (these being the overtones we do not count), which necessarily exists for every note that is not a pure sine wave.

[Steingrim]

Subharmonics is when the ventricular (false) folds vibrate at a lower frequency than the vocal folds do. The difference in frequency may be 2:3, 1:2, 1:3 etc. 1:2 means that if the vocal folds produce an F2 then the false folds are producing an F1. The result may be more pleasing than a rattly fry note at F1. It can work rather well for low basses because the result tends to be more pleasing if the high note is perceived as low in and of itself.

My own attempts at subharmonics have been successful but totally inconsistent. C2/C3 wasn't that hard to do but the result sounded nonsensical. My lowest note, an F1/F2 sounded more believable.

Here's Castellucci getting down to a decent subharmonic F1/F2 : youtu.be/bs4ZJpWJh_Q?t=199

I can hear both pitches but to me the F1 seems to dominate. I have the feeling that if one is able to sing the higher pitch oneself, then it helps when listening to it. 

[BAZanine]

Anyhow ya gotta love good ol' Elvis Presley, who does not use subharmonics

Sorry to derail

[Steingrim]

Jun 9, 2022 6:51:12 GMT BAZanine said:

Anyhow ya gotta love good ol' Elvis Presley, who does not use subharmonics

Sorry to derail

It wasn't common knowledge at that time. There were a few low basses that used the technique but they didn't talk much about it. But given all the strange low notes that Elvis liked to produce, including live, I'm almost certain that he would have used subharmonics for octave 1 notes, if he had known about it and had managed to learn how. 

[motorist]

The E1 link is already down
Edit: Thanks for the update.

[Steingrim]

From the concert "Aloha from Hawaii", 1973

Pretty decent G2 in "My Way" : youtu.be/zLmsZC45-m8?t=1460
Good A4 and somewhere between Bb4 and B4 at the end of "American trilogy" : youtu.be/zLmsZC45-m8?t=3845

[Subterranean Homesick Ålien]

I see that there’s an A4 for “Unchained Melody”, but I’m wondering if it’s the one from this rare performance, because this is an absolutely outstanding A4. I honestly think it’s one of his best notes.
youtu.be/iNZaxmuQFBA?t=2m28s

[Subterranean Homesick Ålien]

Jul 16, 2022 18:05:58 GMT Steingrim said:

From the concert "Aloha from Hawaii", 1973

Pretty decent G2 in "My Way" : youtu.be/zLmsZC45-m8?t=1460
Good A4 and somewhere between Bb4 and B4 at the end of "American trilogy" : youtu.be/zLmsZC45-m8?t=3845

The A4 he hits during that part in the alternate/rehearsal version of that concert—is MUCH better. It’s actually one of my favorite notes of his.
youtu.be/aIrbAswyknw?t=3m58s

[Smitty.]

Wsg ian

[Steingrim]

E2s at 2:50, 3:28 and 3:38 here :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkNqlso8CAM

[Subterranean Homesick Ålien]

I think he hits a great Bb4 here.
I was having a little trouble figuring out if it was an A or a Bb4, so it will probably need verification from someone that isn’t as dumb as me.
But, if it is a Bb4…. Damn. You Go Elvis.
youtu.be/9-hwSBR42Bk?t=1m58s

Here’s another performance where he does it.
youtu.be/NW7mTonphvU?t=1m54s

[BAZanine]

A4; I've always liked the way he'd do that passage.

[Subterranean Homesick Ålien]

Dec 2, 2022 9:07:04 GMT BAZanine said:

A4; I've always liked the way he'd do that passage.

Gotcha. Well, sorry for the hassle. I kept going back and forth trying to figure out if it was an A or Bb. I use my Tuner whenever that happens; And I think it would occasionally top out at Bb, but not always.
This is why I’ll never get to see a Thread for Richard Manuel.
The one person that wants it-is too dumb to make it.