Overtone screams, how do they work? (4,315 views)

[cyberus]

So I made an account here just to ask this question.

I've been casually going through this site for a while now and I've noticed a lot of times, especially with metal singers, you define certain notes as "5th octave notes but with strong overtones that make it sound like a 6th octave note or higher". And I was wondering how that works and how you can tell those things. I've been trying to find literature on the topic but all I can find is proper clean polyphonic singing and people teaching whistle screams through actually accessing whistle register. I only ever came across the term "overtone scream" on this forum.
I haven't figured out how to access whistle register so I wanted to learn how to produce those overtone-y notes alternatively but I can just find nothing. Do these things happen accidentally? Can you learn it? Is there any literature on the topic? 

Just as a few examples of what I mean, I would ask in their respective threads but I really want to understand what's happening here in general and how to determine this. 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUxMicLmYy0 the intro scream here was noted as "very obviously an E5 with overtones" by several people in the thread and I really don't see it. To me it honestly sounds like an E6 no matter how hard I try and if I was making a thread I would've listed it as such. The start of it even sounds like weak whistle register that he strengthens when he gets it.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoelk6gVoM&t=186s this also confuses me. It was said it's a 5th octave note with overtones, but I clearly hear it going to an Eb6. 

There's many examples throughout the site, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I thought it might be smoking damage killing singers' high notes but not all singers that do this are smokers. I thought it's maybe studio processing but a lot of those clips are live with decent recording quality or (possibly old) studio notes with seemingly just some reverb and EQ on them. I thought maybe it's singers being so good they practice some super advanced technique to do this, but then 1: how and where did they learn it and 2: I don't imagine some of them being such vocal experts. And if it's polyphonic singing, I've only ever heard people do it quietly and you can distinctly hear both notes produced, not just 1 really strong one, not to mention polyphonic singing seems like a pretty rare ability, especially in western music. It's hard to believe metalheads in the 80s would be practicing that stuff to such a large degree.


TL;DR: How can you tell between whistle notes and overtones and is there a way to learn overtone screams?

[Platypus]

Overtones like that are pretty tough to determine and I’ve personally struggled for years to try and figure out how they work. These days I have a few hypotheses regarding those types of overtones so I’ll try to formulate what I know, but I can’t guarantee that it’s all 100% accurate.

Most of what are considered overtones are, as you’ve already figured out, not proper polyphonic singing, but rather overtones created by the voice itself or by outside factors entirely.

I usually categorize these types of overtones into four categories:

1) Fry distortion overtones

Fry distortion can give a note a sharper, thinner quality, which can be confused with the whistle register.

examples:

Kyo

Dani Filth

Mike Patton

Dio

2) Over-distortion overtones

If you are adding distortion to a note and you over-compress and use too much air, you can end up creating two or more notes at once. Usually when this happens the lower of the pitches is the one that is the most stable and controllable, so when these situations occur, we tend to list the lowermost pitch as the “fundamental” pitch.

examples:

Lzzy Hale (this one is very subtle, but the fundemental vocal line is D5 - E5)

Dave Grohl

Serj Tankian

Mike Patton (again)

The best example of this is from Litany IV, where we have one solid fundamental hovering around the upper 5th octave and a whistle like overtone that hovers into the 7th octave.

3) Vocal damage overtones

Some singers mess their voice up just right to the point where their higher registers occasionally create overtones unintentionally. This is most common in hard rock/metal singers.

examples:

David Lee Roth
Michael Starr

Eric Martin (probably)

4) Recording quality/effect overtones
These are overtones that are not created by the singer itself but exists on the recording. If you have an already harsh note and you distort it further through subpar recording, compression, or studio effects, you could amplify the overtones of a note to the point where they become easier to hear than the fundamental pitch. This is an extreme example of this phenomenon.

So as for your examples, I'd say DragonForce guy's note falls under categories 1 and 4, BMTH guy's note falls under category 1. I'll write a part two to this post at some point on how I go about differentiating overtones from whistle register.

[kuyashii]

Fantastic write-up mate!

[Captain Planet]

Apr 30, 2021 16:38:08 GMT kuyashii said:

Fantastic write-up mate!

Kuyashii aren't you able to do some decent overtone screams yourself? I remember you uploading a clip of them a few months back. Any chance you could give a very brief overview of how you do them? Are they based on false cord stuff or pushing a harsh whisper?

[cyberus]

Platypus thanks for the super detailed answer, I really appreciate your effort in that response!
I guess the notes under 1) are the most confusing because for literally all of those it sounds perfectly like a whistle note. Looking forward to an explanation on how to tell them apart.

I do have a follow up question though.

For notes from categories 1) and 2), if the overtone is strong, why are they not counted for the overtone, but rather a pitch you sometimes can't even hear in the note?
For example when it comes to subharmonic singing, which is also strengthening undertones to your normal chest voice, you don't have the same criteria of "oh this subharmonic G1 is just a G2 with strong undertones", you treat it as a separate technique with the purpose of producing 1st octave notes and those are still listed on threads and counted as the strong undertone, even though the person can't actually sing those 1st octave notes normally. So similarly, if in cases for 1) and most of 2) those techniques are specifically meant to produce 6th octave notes, even if by overtones, why can they not be counted as such? They're done with purpose and are in key with the song and very strongly sound like 6th octave notes, just like subharmonic bass notes are purposeful, in key and sound very strongly like 1st octave notes, despite really being 2nd or 3rd octave.
If they wanted to sing an E5, they would've done so, their voice can do it, but they want an E6, so they did a fry distortion overtone scream.

For 3) and 4) I completely get it, those aren't techniques or even voice in the case of 4 so it makes no sense to count them as 6th octave notes but 1) and some of 2) seem like they could be taken as 6th octave notes, maybe with a separate note color at least. What am I missing here?

[Platypus]

Good question. I’ll go into a bit more detail on how category [1] and [2] overtones work and why I think they don’t work as replacements for notes produced via whistle register.

As for the overtones, let’s start with category [1] and let’s use this clip of Kyo as an example. In this clip he is singing around G♯5, but because of his throat configuration, the notes sound a lot thinner and sharper, to the point where they sound like they could be 6th octave. The key words here though are sounds like. They are still fifth octave notes, but because they are so sharp they resemble whistle notes in texture. They don’t work as direct replacements for whistle notes, however, since acoustics and recording play a big role in their sharpness. In a totally dry, acapella setting they would most likely sound more like fifth octave notes.

Category [2] on the other hand is a bit different. In those cases, the singer is producing several notes at once. In almost all instances you have a “fundamental” pitch, which is somewhat controlled, and an “overtone” pitch, which usually isn’t as controlled. The relation between the fundamental and the overtone in this category can be whatever, unlike category [1] which usually sounds like a clean octave break.

Let’s use this clip of Mike Patton as an example. It might sound like there are two screams overlayed, but they’re actually just one scream that has produced two pitches. One of the pitches tops at around B♭5, what I’d call the fundamental pitch, the other one at around E7, which I’d call the overtone pitch. The lower one sounds a lot more controlled and stable, while the whistle-like overtone is a lot more erratic and is fading in and out as it goes on. I’d argue that while Patton is producing an E7 with his voice, it’s more so a byproduct of the B♭5 and not really a note in it’s own right and thus B♭5 should be the listed pitch from this passage.

On the nature of subharmonics.

You touch on subharmonics for a bit, which is a good thing to bring up in the discussion so I thought I’d write a little run through. If you were to sing an A4 your vocal cords would collide 440 times per second at a ratio of 1:1. In subharmonic singing, what you do is you make your vocal cords move out of sync with each other so that they end up moving in a ratio of 3:2, which means you end up producing two notes at once. One of these notes is the fundamental note and the other note is a perfect fifth above the fundamental.

If you take a 100 Hz wave and you overlay it with a 150 Hz wave it will look like a 50 Hz wave. Similarly, if you take a 100 Hz tone [~G2] and you overlay a 150 Hz tone [~D3] you will get a subharmonic undertone of 50 Hz [~G1].

Now the reason I think subharmonics is fine to count is that they are inherently more controllable in pitch, they are more predictable and a lot more musical. If you can sing a G1 in subharmonics reliably, I think it is fair to say that you can sing songs that have G1 in them, and it’s therefore part of your vocal range. Because of the nature of category [1] and [2] overtones, they are not really reliable replacements for whistle register notes in my opinion.

[kuyashii]

Apr 30, 2021 18:37:53 GMT Captain Planet said:

Apr 30, 2021 16:38:08 GMT kuyashii said:

Fantastic write-up mate!

Kuyashii aren't you able to do some decent overtone screams yourself? I remember you uploading a clip of them a few months back. Any chance you could give a very brief overview of how you do them? Are they based on false cord stuff or pushing a harsh whisper?

A few years ago I was really into harsh vocals and was absolutely obsessed with Dir en Grey and Kyo to a pretty unhealthy degree (I still like their music and hear it from time to time but I've became pretty saturated of them and handle it with a lot of care nowadays haha) so I really took an effort trying to copy that high-pitched kind of scream Kyo did. I'm not entirely sure if it is the exact same approach as Kyo's (and tbh I feel like his case also might count for categories 2 and 3 considering how often he gets that "two notes at once" thing and how much his voice deteriorated to), but the way I learned was trying to apply the exact same configuration of an inhale squeal (you know, pulling air through a very tight throat opening to create that "tea kettle" sound) while pushing the air instead of pulling it. It has been ages though (2015-2016) and after that I moved both from that kind of music and to another neighbourhood where I don't have so much privacy and stopped practicing screaming and singing altogether.

I'm not entirely sure how it relates to false cord or fry to be honest. One thing I noticed even when I was somewhat confident with harsh vocals was how "disconnected" it was from the rest of my range. When it comes to high screams I always leaned more towards fry because it' felt easier to me, but more often than not, those overtone screams would sound pretty "clean", almost like if it was an inhale. I could sometimes "dirt it up" by adding fry distortion over it but not always it worked.

This was some stupid thing I was messing around as a joke sometime ago (yeah you get it, i'm an absolute idiot) where I'm making random noises over it. 0:11-0:14 is a failed attempt at trying an inhale but 0:14-0:20 is all exhale. You can hear how when I start there's the fry "white noise" but no overtone, but then the overtone comes in the forefront for some time until the "white noise" comes in again. The overtone waivers in pitch quite a lot and in the end it tries to "come back". I could actually hold a pitch and even sing short bits with it back then, but I have no clue how tbh :P

[Captain Planet]

May 3, 2021 1:26:34 GMT kuyashii said:

Apr 30, 2021 18:37:53 GMT Captain Planet said:

Kuyashii aren't you able to do some decent overtone screams yourself? I remember you uploading a clip of them a few months back. Any chance you could give a very brief overview of how you do them? Are they based on false cord stuff or pushing a harsh whisper?

 but the way I learned was trying to apply the exact same configuration of an inhale squeal (you know, pulling air through a very tight throat opening to create that "tea kettle" sound) while pushing the air instead of pulling it.
...
One thing I noticed even when I was somewhat confident with harsh vocals was how "disconnected" it was from the rest of my range. When it comes to high screams I always leaned more towards fry because it' felt easier to me, but more often than not, those overtone screams would sound pretty "clean", almost like if it was an inhale. I could sometimes "dirt it up" by adding fry distortion over it but not always it worked.

Ahh yeah that is the same way I do it, from the video by Hungry Lights on youtube, starting from a whisper (which naturally closes off the throat) and them forcing more air and making it harsher till the scream sound comes. The best I ever managed was here
vocaroo.com/13bcA5dqbWRQ
Like you I always found the sound rather tinny and not often very full sounding. Hungry Lights actually made a follow up video to his base screaming methods where he discusses blending techniques to get stronger screams, that's probably what Patton does.

[cyberus]

Platypus It's actually good that you brought up Kyo and Patton as examples because I specifically had them in mind when I wrote my last reply. They both do it consistently and quite often, plus subharmonics, as you've explained yourself, also sound like 1st octave notes.

I’d argue that while Patton is producing an E7 with his voice, it’s more so a byproduct of the B♭5 and not really a note in it’s own right and thus B♭5 should be the listed pitch from this passage.

Can't we say the same for subharmonics? Technically it's something produced by the vocal cords, but it's a byproduct of a G2 and D3. I get that subharmonics are easier to control, but wouldn't that make Patton's notes even more countable, since it's harder and more impressive to control the overtone screams?
Personally, I would make a distinction for some of the things that can be countable. If a singer does these things on more than 1 or 2 occassions that are clearly not accidents, I don't think it's unreasonable to count the higher and louder note, it feels unfair to just drop someone who ruined his voice or used a vocal effect and someone who practiced a technique for years to do it properly into the same box. As Kuyashii and Captain Planet showed in this thread, it's clearly not an easy thing to do well consistently and imo such an effort should be recognized. OR, alternatively, the same strictness should apply to subharmonics.

And since I mentioned it, in something like Captain Planet 's recording, how would I even determine what the fundamental pitch there is? I can literally only hear the "whistle" note

[kuyashii]

May 3, 2021 5:07:19 GMT Captain Planet said:

Ahh yeah that is the same way I do it, from the video by Hungry Lights on youtube, starting from a whisper (which naturally closes off the throat) and them forcing more air and making it harsher till the scream sound comes. The best I ever managed was here
vocaroo.com/13bcA5dqbWRQ
Like you I always found the sound rather tinny and not often very full sounding. Hungry Lights actually made a follow up video to his base screaming methods where he discusses blending techniques to get stronger screams, that's probably what Patton does.

Sounds pretty decent! Just remember that the tightening of your throat (I suppose the correct term is glottal compression?) shouldn't involve larynx movement. Lowering your larynx is an absolute no no. You can always mess with tongue, lips or jaw positioning (and even the amount of saliva on your mouth can make a difference) to shape the sound of the scream though (EDIT: one thing that might be worth mentioning is how those things can even affect the perception of pitch. Saying that, it's understandable why counting those kinds of notes might be such a nebulous task).

The "tunnel throat" technique (which involves a certain tongue and mouth placement) in addition with the overtoney screams sound pretty cool, here's the former Beyond Deviation vocalist demonstrating how he did that. His explanations aren't the clearest but you can figure it out by his tongue and lips shapes

[Platypus]

cyberus
I do agree with what you say to some degree. Allow me to use one of my own clips as an example.

vocaroo.com/197BuaXIhfAx

These screams all have category [2] overtones, which I amplify as the clip goes on. Now in the earlier examples it's easier to identify the ~D5 fundemental and the whistle-like overtones. But in the last example, what was once a whistle overtone has become just, well, a whistle tone. Now there are two possible hypotheses here that I can think of.

- This is whistle register and you can somehow use the whistle register (or a whistle register-like vocal setup) untop of your regular voice somehow to create overtones

- This isn't whistle register, but is a different way of producing whistle-like notes with enough practice

I am extrapolating, of course. This is uncharted territory, I don't really know what's going on. Either way though, that last example would most likely be considered countable if it had better pitch control. This sort of technique is probably a bit different to what most of these singers are doing, but i'm mentioning it to showcase how there isn't neccecerily that big of a leap from a whistle-like overtone to what can appear to be an actual whistle note.

However, there is one clear problem when counting overtones that I should discuss. Say I'm doing the thread for Mike Patton and I'm counting the notes based on what I hear them as rather than what I think the fundemental is. I then run into this note. The thing is a technical beauty, a nice F♯5 - E6 slide. But halfway through the slide upwards, the overtones get "enabled" so to speak, and the top note sounds like a seventh octave note if heard in isolation. If you were to chuck that clip into a spectogram it would probably tell you it's an E7 as well. But what do I count that as? The top note on it's own sounds like an E7, but it's clear from the context that it is an E6 because when he slides he stops an octave short. Cases like this is another reason why it isn't always a good idea to take these notes at face value.

[Captain Planet]

May 3, 2021 18:19:57 GMT Platypus said:

- This is whistle register and you can somehow use the whistle register (or a whistle register-like vocal setup) untop of your regular voice somehow to create overtones

- This isn't whistle register, but is a different way of producing whistle-like notes with enough practice

It is unfortunately not activating real whistle register, which is a very different sensation in the throat altogether. Have you ever tried sliding into whistle register from falsetto? You will feel your epiglottis shift and the sound moves much further back in your mouth.

[cyberus]

Platypus to me, regardless if it's true whistle or not, you found a way to relatively reliably produce high pitches, so I would've counted them as such. Enhancing an overtone to a point where the fundamental isn't even audible IS a skill and at least to me that's not a thing to ignore. Since it's not a true whistle, a simple separate color would suffice, lets everyone know it's not a true sung note, but at the same time acknowledges and appreciates effort put into learning the technique.
As for the Patton note, I would have probably listed it as questionable anyway due to the recording quality, but I would've still listed it as E7 in the above suggested special color that indicates overtone techniques. I get and I hear why it's supposed to be an E6, but clearly the overtone is produced intentionally (unless the recording is making it stronger) and with good control.
In the end, it's not my forum, obviously count notes however you like, I just wanted to know how and why. But I do think that if those are the reasons why overtones are not counted, it might be good to discuss inclusion of at least some of the categories via a separate note color or something like that. But thanks for all the explanations, it was very informative and made it easier to find some other sources on the topic that I'll get to reading.

[blazejecar2]

Interesting conversation. I use whistle register quite a bit, even voice acted a character in it, it's definitely different from just overtones and also more controllable (I can't actually do overtones reliably, just did it by accident a few times). So I kinda agree they shouldn't be counted, however I can also agree that it can sometimes be borderline impossible to tell the fundamental pitch, in which case I'd rather just use the high pitch and label it a different color to make it clear it's not the sung pitch. This is a pretty valid discussion to have :scratch:

Just perhaps as a fun question related to this,



what would you guys (and also cyberus) pitch this "chord" as? The fundamental Eb3? Or would you count the overtones/undertones for something?

[Karen’s Kickassarole]

Jun 7, 2021 6:56:37 GMT blazejecar2 said:

What would you guys pitch this "chord" as? The fundamental Eb3? Or would you count the overtones/undertones for something?

I’d just give up notewatching the guy tbh

[cyberus]

blazejecar2 damn, that's a pretty extreme example. Though technically it's just part of a video so you could list Eb3 and then like 3 of the strongest pitches in the different note color to indicate it's under/overtones (for example Eb1, Ab1 and F6) and it wouldn't be overinclusion. Though I guess that's cheating your question. If I had to pick just one of them, I don't know. Maybe Eb1 since it ends up being the strongest note in there, but realistically, in that case I think listing more than 1 note would be justified.

Also voice acting in whistle register? lol how