Dave Mustaine (16,362 views)

[Platypus]

David Scott Mustaine (13 September 1961 -)
Associated Acts: Megadeth (1983-2002, 2004-present), Metallica (1982-1983)
Vocal Range: C2 - E♭5

SPOILER: Click to show

One of the seminal vocalists of the 1980s thrash metal scene, Dave Mustaine's signature chest-heavy belting and snarling vocal phrasing make his voice instantly recognisable. Though not all that virtuosic a vocalist in his early career with Megadeth (also when his voice was at its most twangy and nasal), Mustaine was capable of sustaining strong notes and navigating fairly challenging melodies entirely in the upper fourth octave, and was even able to push himself to hit some passable belted D5s in studio, for example on 'Looking Down the Cross'. This appears to have been the limit of Mustaine's 'clean' singing, having to employ a harsher tone to reach some E♭5s in a live performance of the same song, and these notes represented the absolute limit of his upper register.

The 1990s was probably Mustaine's vocal peak in terms of technique: he refined his belting and developed a little more of a rounded tone, displaying some strong notes as high as C♯5 on tracks such as 'Captive Honour' and 'Have Cool, Will Travel'. He also showcased a little more sensitivity and appreciation of softer singing, such as on 'A Tout Le Monde'.

A heavy smoker for much of his life, Mustaine's voice has certainly darkened with age; the passage of time has seen him showcase more of his lower register, including some strong F2s on 'Moto Psycho' and even some passable E2s on 2007's 'Gears of War.' Throughout the 2000s his high singing both in studio and live remained solid enough, but tended to cap near the top of the fourth octave. The 2010s have seen a greater degradation of his voice with 2013's Super Collider probably representing Mustaine's lowest point in studio as a vocalist. His live performances throughout the last few years have generally been poor, with belting in particular putting a real strain on his voice.
In summary, Mustaine is probably a better vocalist than he has often been given credit for; whilst his abrasive tone is something of an acquired taste, he did develop into a solid heavy metal vocalist with little-to-no training or guidance, and a reasonably well-rounded singer overall.
Written by falsetokaiba .

SPOILER: Click to show

with Megadeth:

Killing is My Business… and Business is Good! (1985) C3 - D5
Peace Sells… but Who's Buying? (1986) F2 - E3 - D5
So Far, So Good… So What? (1988) B2 - E3 - D5
Rust in Peace (1990) B♭2 - E3 - C5
Countdown to Extinction (1992) D3 - C♯5
Youthanasia (1994) F2 - C5
Hidden Treasures (EP) (1995) B♭2 - C♯3 - E♭3 - B4
Cryptic Writings (1997) G2 - A2 - C♯5
Risk (1999) F♯2 - G♯2 - C5
The World Needs a Hero (2001) F2 - B4
The System Has Failed (2004) A2 - B♭4
United Abominations (2007) E2 - B4
Endgame (2009) A2 - G♯4
Thirteen (2011) G2 - A4
Super Collider (2013) G2 - A2 - G4
Dystopia (2016) F2 - B2 - G4 - A4
The Sick, The Dying… And The Dead! (2022) C2 - D2 - G4 - A4

with MD.45:

The Craving (1996) F2 - B♭2 - B4 - E♭5

Significant High Notes:

E♭5 ("Looking Down the Cross" live Berkely 03/11/1984, "Voices")
D5 ("Last Rites/Loved to Deth" live Berkely 03/11/1984, "Looking Down the Cross", "Mary Jane", "My Last Words")
C♯5 ("The Conjuring" live Tokyo 1987, "Captive Honour", "Have Cool, Will Travel", "Killing Is My Business...And Business Is Good!", "Mechanix", "These Boots" live Berkeley 03/11/1984, "À Tout Le Monde" Live Gigantour 2005)
C5 ("Anarchy In The U.K." live Detroit 1990, "Bad Omen", "Chosen Ones", "Good Mourning/Black Friday", "High Speed Dirt", "Last Rites/Loved to Deth", "Looking Down the Cross", "Lucretia", "Mary Jane", "Never Say Die", "Peace Sells" Live at Wembley, "Problem Child" live Germany 2004, "Rattlehead", "Reckoning Day" live in Arizona 1997, "À Tout Le Monde", "Wake Up Dead" live Castle Donington 1988, "Wanderlust")
B4 ("1000 Times Goodbye", "99 Ways to Die", "Addicted to Chaos", "Ashes in Your Mouth", "Bad Omen", "Blood of Heroes", "Captive Honour", "Coming Home", "The Conjuring", "Crown of Worms", "Devils Island", "The Disintegrators", "FFF", "Good Mourning/Black Friday", "Have Cool, Will Travel", "Holy Wars...The Punishment Due", "I Ain't Superstitious", "In My Darkest Hour", "Killing Is My Business...And Business Is Good!", "Mary Jane", "Mastermind", "Mechanix", "Never Walk Alone… a Call to Arms", "One Thing", "Paranoid", "Peace Sells", "Rattlehead", "Reckoning Day", "Roadman", "Set the World Afire", "Sin", "The Skull Beneath the Skin", "Sweating Bullets", "These Boots", "Train of Consequenes" live Mesa 1997, "Trust", "Use the Man", "Voices", "Wake Up Dead")
B♭4 ("Addicted to Chaos", "Back in the Day", "Black Curtains", "Diadems", "Elysian Fields", "Family Tree", "Hearts Will Bleed", "Hell's Motel", "I Thought I Knew It All", "I'll Get Even", "The Killing Road", "My Last Words", "My Town", "Nothing Is Something", "A Secret Place", "Tornado of Souls", "Train of Consequences", "Victory", "Youthanesia")
A4 ("Anarchy in the U.K.", "Bad Omen", "Black Swan", "Breakpoint", "Burning Bridges", "Captive Honour", "Chosen Ones", "The Conjuring", "Countdown to Extinction" demo version, "The Creed", "Day the Music Died", "Diadems", "The Disintegrators", "The Doctor Is Calling", "FFF", "Gears of War", "Good Mourning/Black Friday", "Hell's Motel", "High Speed Dirt", "Hook in Mouth", "I Ain't Superstitious", "I'll Be There", "I'll Get Even", "In My Darkest Hour", "Insomnia", "Kick the Chair", "Last Rites/Loved to Deth", "Liar", "Looking Down the Cross", "Mastermind", "Mechanix", "Melt the Ice Away", "My Last Words", "Never Say Die", "Night Stalkers", "No More Mister Nice Guy", "Of Mice and Men", "One Thing", "Outshined" live Tokyo 2017, "Poisonous Shadows", "Prince of Darkness", "Psychotron", "Rattlehead", "The Scorpion", "A Secret Place", "Set the World Afire", "Seven", "Sin", "Skin o' My Teeth", "The Skull Beneath the Skin", "Sweating Bullets", "Take No Prisoners", "Tears in a Vial", "These Boots", "This Planet's On Fire (Burn In Hell)", "Tornado of Souls", "Trust", "United Abominations", "Wanderlust", "When", "Whose Life (Is It Anyways?)")
G♯4 ("Almost Honest", "Back in the Day", "Breadline", "Designer Behavior", "Elysian Fields", "Head Crusher", "Hearts Will Bleed", "Look Who's Talking", "My Kingdom", "My Town", "No Pain", "Problems", "Reckoning Day", "Roadman", "Take No Prisoners", "À Tout Le Monde", "Voices", "Wanderlust")
G4 ("99 Ways to Die", "Almost Honest", "Anarchy in the U.K.", "Ashes in Your Mouth", "Back in the Day", "Black Swan", "Blackmail the Universe", "Blessed Are the Dead", "Built for War", "Bullet to the Brain", "Burn!", "Burning Bridges", "Coming Home", "Deadly Nightshade", "Death from Within", "The Doctor Is Calling", "Dogs Of Chernobyl", "Ecstasy", "Endgame", "Five Magics", "Foreclosure of a Dream", "Foreign Policy", "Gears of War", "Guns, Drugs and Money", "The Hardest Part of Letting Go… Sealed With a Kiss", "Holy Wars...The Punishment Due", "Hook in Mouth", "How the Story Ends", "I'll Get Even", "Insomnia", "Liar", "Life In Hell", "Lying in State", "Mastermind", "Melt the Ice Away", "New World Order", "Night Stalkers", "Off the Edge", "One Thing", "Outshined" live Tokyo 2017, "Paranoid", "Play for Blood", "Police Truck", "Prince of Darkness", "Promises", "Psychotron", "Rust in Peace...Polaris", "School's Out", "The Scorpion", "Set the World Afire", "Seven", "She-Wolf", "Sleepwalker", "Soldier On!", "Sudden Death", "Super Collider", "Tears in a Vial", "This Day We Fight!", "This Planet's On Fire (Burn In Hell)", "This Was My Life", "Truth Be Told", "United Abominations", "Use the Man", "Vortex", "Washington Is Next", "We the People", "We'll Be Back", "When")
F♯4 ("13", "1320'", "44 Minutes", "Am I Evil?" live Bulgaria 2010, "Architecture of Aggression", "Black Curtains", "Black Swan", "Breakpoint", "Burnt Ice", "Day the Music Died", "Delivering the Goods", "Designer Behavior", "Dread and the Fugitive Mind", "Endgame, "Family Tree", "Fast Lane", "FFF", "Foreign Policy", "Kick the Chair", "Lucretia", "My Sweet Lord" live Buenos Aires 1997, "Never Dead", "Never Walk Alone… a Call to Arms", "No More Mister Nice Guy", "Nothing Is Something", "Of Mice and Men", "Recipe for Hate… Warhorse", "Rust in Peace...Polaris", "Sacrifice", "Take No Prisoners", "This Day We Fight!", "Tornado of Souls", "Trust", "Vortex", "Whose Life (Is It Anyways?)", "You're Dead", "Youthanesia")

Significant Low Notes:

E3 ("1000 Times Goodbye", "13", "Amerikhastan", "Architecture of Aggression", "Blackmail the Universe", "Blessed Are the Dead", "Bodies", "Breadline", "Burnt Ice", "Captive Honour", "Cold Sweat", "Countdown to Extinction", "Dance in the Rain", "Deadly Nightshade", "Disconnect", "The Disintegrators", "The Doctor Is Calling", "Dread and the Fugitive Mind", "Endgame", "Fast Lane", "Fatal Illusion", "Go to Hell", "Guns, Drugs and Money", "Head Crusher" live Moscow 2012, "Holy Wars...The Punishment Due", "How the Story Ends", "In My Darkest Hour", "Kill The King", "Killing Is My Business...And Business Is Good!", "My Kingdom", "Psychotron", "Recipe for Hate… Warhorse", "Return to Hangar", "The Right to Go Insane", "The Scorpion", "Seven", "She-Wolf", "Sleepwalker", "Something That I'm Not", "Sudden Death", "Sweating Bullets", "These Boots", "This Was My Life", "Time: The Beginning", "Truth Be Told", "United Abominations", "Use the Man", "Wake Up Dead", "Washington Is Next", "Wrecker", "You're Dead")
E♭3 ("Angry Again", "Crush 'Em", "Diadems", "Family Tree", "Fight Hate", "Hell's Motel", "The Killing Road", "Look Who's Talking", "Nothing Is Something", "Reckoning Day", "The Sick, The Dying… And The Dead!", "À Tout Le Monde", "Voices", "Youthanesia")
D3 ("1000 Times Goodbye", "44 Minutes", "Almost Honest", "Beginning of Sorrow", "The Blackest Crow", "Bodies", "Burn!", "Burning Bridges", "Célebutante", "Coming Home", "Dance in the Rain", "Death from Within", "Die Dead Enough", "Disconnect", "Dogs Of Chernobyl", "Don't Turn You Back", "Dread and the Fugitive Mind" live Hellfest 2022, "Ecstasy", "Endgame", "Guns, Drugs and Money", "The Hardest Part of Letting Go… Sealed With a Kiss", "Holy Wars...The Punishment Due" live Hellfest 2022, "I'll Be There", "Junkie", "Killing Time", "Kingmaker", "Life In Hell", "Lying in the State", "Night Stalkers", "Off the Edge", "Peace Sells" live Hellfest 2022, "Poisonous Shadows", "Police Truck", "Post American World", "Prince of Darkness", "Promises", "Public Enemy No. 1", "Recipe for Hate… Warhorse", "The Right to Go Insane", "Seven", "She-Wolf", "Sudden Death", "Sweating Bullets", "Symphony of Destruction", "The Threat Is Real", "Time: The Beginning", "À Tout Le Monde" live Hellfest 2022, "Trust", "Use the Man", "Wake Up Dead" live Bloodstock 2017, "Wanderlust", "Washington Is Next")
C♯3 ("Addicted to Chaos", "Angry Again", "Bullet to the Brain", "Family Tree", "I'll Get Even", "Looking Down the Cross", "Promises", "Public Enemy No. 1", "Reckoning Day", "Sacrifice", "The Sick, The Dying… And The Dead!", "Sleepwalker", "This Day We Fight!")
C3 ("Anarchy in the U.K." live Mesa 1997, "Beginning of Sorrow", "The Blackest Crow", "Built for War", "Burn!", "Death from Within", "Forget to Remember", "Last Rites/Loved to Deth", "Mission To Mars", "Poisonous Shadows", "Police Truck", "Post American World", "A Secret Place", "She-Wolf" live at Resurrection Fest EG 2018, "Sweating Bullets" live Hellfest 2022, "Symphony of Destruction" New York Acoustic 2013, "Trust" live Hellfest 2022, "Wanderlust")
B2 ("44 Minutes", "Breadline", "Bullet to the Brain", "The Doctor Is Calling", "Dread and the Fugitive Mind", "I'll Get Even", "In My Darkest Hour", "Kill The King", "Look Who's Talking", "Losing My Senses", "Mastermind", "Millenium of the Blind", "The Scorpion", "Time: The Beginning", "Washington Is Next")
B♭2 ("Angry Again", "The Blackest Crow", "Dawn Patrol", "Nothing Is Something", "Promises")
A2 ("Amerikhastan", "Built for War", "Célebutante", "The Hardest Part of Letting Go… Sealed With a Kiss", "Have Cool, Will Travel", Humming the riff to Apache Never Mind the Buzzcocks, "Insomnia", "Junkie", "Killing Time", "Losing My Senses", "Never Say Die", "Night Stalkers", "Sacrifice", "A Secret Place" Live Boston 1998, "The Sick, The Dying… And The Dead!", "Tears in a Vial", "Time: The Beginning" live Toronto 2001, "Trust", "When", "Wild Irish Rose" Live Nashville 2013, "The World Needs a Hero")
G♯2 ("Prince of Darkness", "Roadman", "Seven", "Wanderlust")
G2 ("Civil War", "Dance in the Rain", "Dogs Of Chernobyl", "Killing Time", "Millenium of the Blind", "Recipe for Hate… Warhorse", "A Secret Place" Live Boston 1998, "Trust" Spanish Version, "The World Needs a Hero")
F♯2 ("Dawn Patrol" live Athens 2012, "The Doctor Is Calling", "Last Dying Wish")
F2 ("The Conjuring", "The Creed", "Family Tree", "I'll Be There", "Moto Psycho", "Poisonous Shadows", "Psychopathy", "Wild Irish Rose" Live Nashville 2013)
E2 ("Gears of War", "The Sick, The Dying… And The Dead!", "Trust" live Guitar Center Sessions 2012)
D2 ("Dogs Of Chernobyl")
C2 ("Life In Hell")

SPOILER: Click to show

B♭5 ("Last Rites/Loved to Deth" [1])
A5 ("Last Rites/Loved to Deth" [1])
E5 ("Junkie" [4])
E♭5 ("Dawn Patrol" live Athens 2012 [3], "Mary Jane" [5a], "Take No Prisoners" Demo version [5])
D5 ("Life In Hell" [4])

E2 ("Almost Honest" [3], "Blackmail the Universe" [2][4], "Seven" [2][4], "Sin" [2][4])
D2 ("Gears of War" [3], "United Abominations" [3])
G1 ("Life In Hell" [3])
F1 ("Dawn Patrol" [3a])
E1 ("Never Dead" [3])

.......................................................
[1] marks yelps and short trills in high range or anacrusis and short dips in low range.
[2] marks notes of questionable identity that cannot be confirmed to be the singer in question.
[3] marks non-melodic notes that don't have a significant enough pitch to warrant inclusion.
(a) This song is pretty much fry-speak galore. F1 is the lowest note in the song that still holds somewhat of a pitch.
[4] marks notes that possess uncertain pitch or have been pitch-shifted.
[5] marks notes that do not fit the previous criteria but are not of a substantial enough quality to warrant counting towards the singer's range.
(a) Brief and overshot.

Additional formatting and bolds by falsetokaiba . Old thread by kewis .

.......................................................
Blue indicates falsetto notes.
Grey indicates heavily fry-ish notes.
Underlines mark notes in backing vocals or otherwise obscured in the song mix.
Italics mark non-melodic notes.

[CT]

Rebelling against the pro DMHALT3OR (Dave Mustaine Has A Less Than 3 Octave Range) establishment

[EddieCheivz]

I would have preferred to wait until see what we're going to do with low notes on "Dawn Patrol" before posting this thread again, since all stuff/arguments about them are posted on the older thread.

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

The "Dawn Patrol" C♯2s are about as controlled as that "Looking Down the Cross" live E5...

Also the E♭5 that you have listed for "Take No Prisoners" is from the demo, not the studio version. I figured that would still be countable as an italicized note, but meh.

I think it's safe to say we can take the "Sin" E2s out of the spoiler too - kewis and I examined those some time ago and found them to be very heavily darkened E3s, almost bordering on death growls. You wouldn't really be able to make a second octave note sound like that.

[Platypus]

re: Sin E2

You are correct, but personally I'd just like to keep it for prosperity sake in case someone comes to this thread from your range video (like I originally did) and start wondering what where the E2 went.

re: Take No Prisoners E♭5

Good shout, fixed.

re: Dawn Patrol

He has (virtually) zero projection on any of those lower second-octave notes, and whilst there are occacional discernable pitches here and there, it doesn't convince me that he has control over that area of his range in any usable way.

Pretty much anyone can "speak" in vocal fry, but that's not the same as being able to control the pitches individually.

EDIT: edited for clarity

[EddieCheivz]

Aug 14, 2022 18:07:21 GMT Platypus said:

Pretty much anyone can "speak" in vocal fry, but that's not the same as being able to control the pitches individually.

-Good to see we touched this topic, cause is a point that I've thinking on any other singer vocal range:

I mean, if the logic is that, then it means we must only count certain notes singer in question would be able to hit individually? And if him/her cannot reach that thing in that specific and separate way but he/she can do it taking advantage of the vocal impulse is generating with the amount of notes and cadence that make possible hit a better projection and in this way reach an lower (or higher) note than separately probably cannot, then aren't countable??

Cause if that's the consensus then there are very notes here and there on many threads we musn't been counting:



For example A1 from "Blood Sugar Sex Magik" probably couldn't be reached without all those low tones that he had been doing since before. I doubt he can do the A1 with just one shoot.



John Lennon's A1 is another one could probably couldn't be achivied with those first notes before that. He started singing around D2/C♯2 several times to after get an B1 and finally a minor resonance A1, I'm not 100% sure he can do that (at least with that countable tone) with just one note starting on A.



Morten Karket C2 is the same, really doubt he can do that lowest note with that resonance if he only wanted to hit it isolated, but thanks to the impulse he had in that verse he can reach it. (and even I could think same occours with the A5 from "Take on Me" live)


And there are million examples more on anyone vocal range, but they are countables on any other thread, but once again the fact those legit notes from "Dawn Patrol" are jointed with that lot of shit vocal fry notes is the reason why is easier just exclude them, or not?



-Additionaly all that, you said this too: "He has zero projection on ANY of those lower second-octave notes" but literally after that you say this: "whilst there are occacional discernable pitches". Wait, you said there are not any projection there;  how that zero projected notes can have a completely discernable pitch then? 


 #JUSTICEFORDAWNPATROL lol

[Gilad]

See, the difference between the notes in Dawn Patrol and the ones you linked, is that the notes you linked are "good", while the Dawn Patrol notes are "bad". Ya feel me dawg?

[EddieCheivz]

Aug 14, 2022 19:21:19 GMT EddieCheivz said:

Aug 14, 2022 18:07:21 GMT Platypus said:

but once again the fact those legit notes from "Dawn Patrol" are jointed with that lot of shit vocal fry notes is the reason why is easier just exclude them, or not?

Course , that's why I wrote after all that this sentence you have up :)

Or if you're talking about the specific "legit" notes from "Dawn Patrol" as the C♯2 and not about all other not countable fry notes, then let me refresh the deliveiry of at least that C♯2, which one is at least very more consistent and definite than the C2 by Morten that is countable in his thread:

-If you hear this C:



Better than this C♯ definitely there are something wrong


Ya feel me dawg?

[Platypus]

Aug 14, 2022 19:21:19 GMT EddieCheivz said:

-Additionaly all that, you said this too: "He has zero projection on ANY of those lower second-octave notes" but literally after that you say this: "whilst there are occacional discernable pitches". Wait, you said there are not any projection there;  how that zero projected notes can have a completely discernable pitch then? 

Aight, mr. Cheese, you got me.

In my previous post, I made the claim that the notes in Dawn Patrol had, and I quote, "zero projection". Now I almost had the lot of you fooled, but in the end, truth always prevails, and even someone as clever as I must concede that he is indeed pushing air out of his lungs to produce those notes, and thus my claim of "zero projection" is ultimatelly erronious. Thanks to your efforts, I have decided to change this statement to "virtually zero projection", and I will amend my post to reflect this.

Alright, here's my essay on the fucking dawn patrol shit.

What is vocal range?

There's a few ways to look at what vocal range is, but for the sake of this forum I'd say there are two definitions we generally consider.

1) The range of pitches that a singer is able to phonate
Basically, any pitch a singer is able to make with their voice. You take the lowest-pitch noise they can make and measure it against the highest-pitch noise they make. Bam, that's their vocal range

2) The range of pitches that a singer is able to control
This is the definition that TRP uses. This one is more subjective, as “controlled range” has no strict definition. But as far as the forum is concerned, we are our own arbitrators of what “controlled range” constitutes, and we have our own rules and guidelines on what makes a particular note or passage “count” towards a singer’s controllable vocal range.

This definition, of course, implies that not all pitches a vocalist phonates are sufficiently “controlled”.

But how can a singer phonate a pitch while simultaneously not having “control” over said pitch? What does control mean in this context?

Control, as in the case for this forum, has mostly to do with musicality. This is a music forum, after all. In fact, if I had to define what this forum is, I’d define it as:

“An index of singers, and the notes which the singers can be reasonably expected to be able to intentionally reproduce, and songs which this level of control is demonstrated.”

This is not a perfect definition of what the forum is. For one, we make no differentiation of a singer’s range based on age, smoking, injuries, or other factors that can have a significant impact on a singer’s voice and vocal range. But I think it’s close to what the “goal” of the forum ultimately is.

Now if a singer is hitting a note as a part of a clear, discernible melody line, it is reasonable to assume that the singer is/was able to reproduce that note. For example, take John Lennon’s A1. Lennon sings it as part of a clear, discernible melody line, and thus we can reasonably assume that Lennon had enough control at that part of his range to be able to intentionally reproduce said note.

Now, as is the case with this forum, we also can consider “spoken notes” to be part of a person’s controllable vocal range. Part of the rationale behind that is that if a singer can phonate strongly at a low pitch, even if the phonation in question lacks a clear, discernible melody, we can reasonably assume that the singer has enough control over that part of their voice to be able to intentionally reproduce said pitch. Or, to put it simply, if they good at speaking low = they can sing low.

Take Anthony’s A1, for instance. That passage doesn’t really have a discernible melody, but he is demonstrating his ability to phonate strongly at that pitch, to the point where we can extrapolate a bit and say that it’s reasonable to assume that he would be able to reproduce a note at that pitch given the right circumstances.

This is not something I would say applies to the notes from Dawn Patrol. It is gargle fry with virtually zero projection (hey). The pitches of the notes are barely discernable, and seem random and haphazardly tossed around throughout most of the track, with barely any of them being sustained for any worthwhile length of time.

To summarize, the C♯2 from Dawn Patrol, whilst it does exist, I feel does not sufficiently demonstrate Dave Mustaines ability to hit the note “C♯2” to the point where he would be able to intentionally reproduce said note.

TL;DR – whatever, dudes. I’ll see you nurds at saw-con in October.

[EddieCheivz]

Honestly when I started to read your post i thought: "Well, Platypus going to kick my ass today" (I know you have lot of knownledge for provide us), but basically we just jumped on the same thing again: the quality of all other fry notes.

That's what you're explaining in few words, that's why all other examples I gave are okay for you, cause in Lennon ir Anthony's case the entire passage is good, but as with Mustaine all that amount of notes sucks then he's not able to hit "virtually" an C#2, okay got it.

So I'm not going to bother you anymore with this, at least I confirmed thing Henny and I thought was truth; reason is that shit control, it's okay.
In my mind will be countable though, see you at Saw-con on October!

[MrToddington]

Here's a speed corrected version of the Looking Down the Cross note. I have only done it by ear but I think it's about right.

cross.mp3 (514.87 KB)

I think it's an Eb5 to be honest.

[EddieCheivz]

Also don't know if it's just with me but linked video for the E2 is not available (since the older thread).

Doesn't seems to be an regional issue or channel deleted; literally just says is not available, probably a video's propietary decision.

EDIT: I've started to think in fact, yes, is just with me ):

[motorist]

Aug 15, 2022 13:34:59 GMT MrToddington said:

Here's a speed corrected version of the Looking Down the Cross note. I have only done it by ear but I think it's about right.

View Attachment

I think it's an Eb5 to be honest.

Sounds like an E5 on that recording still? Honestly, I can't really notice a change in pitch.. I judged the pitch of the A4s (on the word DOWN) when he sings those lines to the A4s in the studio version (not a good measure but whatever), and I think it would be a bit flatter than what you posted, but still an E5.

Aug 15, 2022 16:13:17 GMT EddieCheivz said:

Also don't know if it's just with me but linked video for the E2 is not available (since the older thread).

Doesn't seems to be an regional issue or channel deleted; literally just says is not available, probably a video's propietary decision.

EDIT: I've started to think in fact, yes, is just with me ):

Nope, not just you. Don't know why youtube randomly deletes auto-generated videos but there you go.

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

Aug 14, 2022 21:45:52 GMT Platypus said:

Aug 14, 2022 19:21:19 GMT EddieCheivz said:

-Additionaly all that, you said this too: "He has zero projection on ANY of those lower second-octave notes" but literally after that you say this: "whilst there are occacional discernable pitches". Wait, you said there are not any projection there;  how that zero projected notes can have a completely discernable pitch then? 

Aight, mr. Cheese, you got me.

In my previous post, I made the claim that the notes in Dawn Patrol had, and I quote, "zero projection". Now I almost had the lot of you fooled, but in the end, truth always prevails, and even someone as clever as I must concede that he is indeed pushing air out of his lungs to produce those notes, and thus my claim of "zero projection" is ultimatelly erronious. Thanks to your efforts, I have decided to change this statement to "virtually zero projection", and I will amend my post to reflect this.

Alright, here's my essay on the fucking dawn patrol shit.

What is vocal range?

There's a few ways to look at what vocal range is, but for the sake of this forum I'd say there are two definitions we generally consider.

1) The range of pitches that a singer is able to phonate
Basically, any pitch a singer is able to make with their voice. You take the lowest-pitch noise they can make and measure it against the highest-pitch noise they make. Bam, that's their vocal range

2) The range of pitches that a singer is able to control
This is the definition that TRP uses. This one is more subjective, as “controlled range” has no strict definition. But as far as the forum is concerned, we are our own arbitrators of what “controlled range” constitutes, and we have our own rules and guidelines on what makes a particular note or passage “count” towards a singer’s controllable vocal range.

This definition, of course, implies that not all pitches a vocalist phonates are sufficiently “controlled”.

But how can a singer phonate a pitch while simultaneously not having “control” over said pitch? What does control mean in this context?

Control, as in the case for this forum, has mostly to do with musicality. This is a music forum, after all. In fact, if I had to define what this forum is, I’d define it as:

“An index of singers, and the notes which the singers can be reasonably expected to be able to intentionally reproduce, and songs which this level of control is demonstrated.”

This is not a perfect definition of what the forum is. For one, we make no differentiation of a singer’s range based on age, smoking, injuries, or other factors that can have a significant impact on a singer’s voice and vocal range. But I think it’s close to what the “goal” of the forum ultimately is.

Now if a singer is hitting a note as a part of a clear, discernible melody line, it is reasonable to assume that the singer is/was able to produce that note. For example, take John Lennon’s A1. Lennon sings it as part of a clear, discernible melody line, and thus we can reasonably assume that Lennon had enough control at that part of his range to be able to intentionally reproduce said note.

Now, as is the case with this forum, we also can consider “spoken notes” to be part of a person’s controllable vocal range. Part of the rationale behind that is that if a singer can phonate strongly at a low pitch, even if the phonation in question lacks a clear, discernible melody, we can reasonably assume that the singer has enough control over that part of their voice to be able to intentionally reproduce said pitch. Or, to put it simply, if they good at speaking low = they can sing low.

Take Anthony’s A1, for instance. That passage doesn’t really have a discernible melody, but he is demonstrating his ability to phonate strongly at that pitch, to the point where we can extrapolate a bit and say that it’s reasonable to assume that he would be able to reproduce a note at that pitch given the right circumstances.

This is not something I would say applies to the notes from Dawn Patrol. It is gargle fry with virtually zero projection (hey). The pitches of the notes are barely discernable, and seem random and haphazardly tossed around throughout most of the track, with barely any of them being sustained for any worthwhile length of time.

To summarize, the C♯2 from Dawn Patrol, whilst it does exist, I feel does not sufficiently demonstrate Dave Mustaines ability to hit the note “C♯2” to the point where he would be able to intentionally reproduce said note.

TL;DR – whatever, dudes. I’ll see you nurds at saw-con in October.

This is a good post that overall brings up some good points against counting the notes in that song, but I feel the need to say a bit more about it because I ain't goin' down without a fight.

First off, how do you feel about the notes in this live version of the song?

This is now the third time I've brought it up cause no one's seemed to give it any regard the previous two times, and at the very least I think the notes here are solid and non-fryish enough that they should be counted. Mind you, they only get down to like G♯2, but it sounds pretty cool.

Secondly, I mostly agree with your arguments about the bulk of the notes in the studio version - they are very shitty cracklefry that make for pretty easy spoiler material. The part that I think many people seem to be overlooking, however, is that there are specific lines in the song that are definitely more controlled and even sung than the rest.

For instance, forgetting about the C♯2s for a second, is there any way to deny that this is a pretty solidly controlled line between B2 and A2? Same question for 1:20 - that's a pretty clearly controlled line between D3 and C3 that I think is worth counting as well.

My main issue with the way people have been treating this song is that they've been hearing all the fry and have just jumped to the conclusion that there's nothing countable in there whatsoever because of that, which they may find to not be the case if they listened more closely. We might end up just having to agree to disagree on the C♯2s, but I'd like to at least get a bit of acknowledgment that there are SOME countable lows in that song.

[EddieCheivz]

-I have to admit I'm having second thoughts about that C#2 understanding reasons Platypus explained about is not particularly a controled note since the line where note in question is done doesn't have enough domain at least comparing them with his other lows in the thread.

Just I would liked to see people accept at least on any point during this debate that we were right since the beggining about that the entire passage lacks of quality and decent entonation for allow us accept that note as countable (as we said several times), and in this way we could probably have avoided all this annoying discussion, since the fact it never been recognized by nobody caused in this way we still continued with our thoughts.

So yeah, as an honest and kind person I am I must accept that Platypus certainly kicked hard my ass anyway.




-Reagarding Henny last post, I'd say then would be better just count live version instead studio one since he goes countably lower there.

I mean, we can just count the G#2 from live version, or in the least of the cases, count the G# from live version and the A? (Haven't pitched for myself but I'm appeling what Henny pitched) from studio.

[Platypus]

I'm getting B♭2 from that part in Dawn Patrol myself, but I have no objections for counting it. Ditto for the G♯2.

As for the E5, i'm gonna go with Todd's judgement on this one and bump it down to E♭5 again for now

[EddieCheivz]

Ladies and gentleman: I'm glad to say all you we've finally ended with all this problematic event for determinate Dave both vocal extremities

You can continue with your labors.

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

Aug 16, 2022 15:15:54 GMT EddieCheivz said:

Ladies and gentleman: I'm glad to say all you we've finally ended with all this problematic event for determinate Dave both vocal extremities

You can continue with your labors.

Not so fast bucko, I'm not quite through here yet.

Aug 16, 2022 10:58:22 GMT Platypus said:

I'm getting B♭2 from that part in Dawn Patrol myself, but I have no objections for counting it. Ditto for the G♯2.

Alright cool, I'm glad we can agree on that much for starters. With that in mind, how do you feel about the G♭2s at 0:45 right after the B♭2? That line still sounds pretty controlled too, right?

[queenfan11]

This D5 in "My Last Words" seems pretty countable to me:

[EddieCheivz]

Aug 18, 2022 17:19:28 GMT Hennessy Macklemore III said:

Aug 16, 2022 15:15:54 GMT EddieCheivz said:

Ladies and gentleman: I'm glad to say all you we've finally ended with all this problematic event for determinate Dave both vocal extremities

You can continue with your labors.

Not so fast bucko, I'm not quite through here yet.

Aug 16, 2022 10:58:22 GMT Platypus said:

I said "WE'RE DONE"... Okno lol

In my personal oppinion that line still sounding more or less in the same way all other uncontrolled and random vocals of the song, I mean if we're going to apply this judgement about those low tones (as for the vocal line where C♯2 exist and practically all others) then I cannot see too much difference between them and that vocal line ("Still we sleepwalk off to work"). I think he goes very better on "To more air pollution warnings" yes, but that next line to me sounds very similar in tone and all to rest of the song.

I was searching for more live performances thinking could be lower countable notes (than G♯2) and by my surprise I found some interesting things, some of them sounds a bit confusing to me so I'd appreciate to receive any feedback, at least I'm sure some of them goes rightfully lower than G♯2, well here all you got them:

First of all, I'm not 100% sure if I pitched them right (that's why I'm looking for feedbacks lol), but this is what i got:


"Thermal count is rising (G2) in perpetual writhing" (F♯2)


This one sounds a bit strange to me, I'm not sure but Dave voice sounds very strong and low for his timbre... maybe shift-pitched? whatever I can only hear it bottom at G2s here.


"and the sanity they lose (F♯2)"


"and the sanity they lose (E2?)" also please check it out at 0:22: "as our nervous systems jerk" i hear E2s as well
1:01 "in the dark" sounds like a fry E2 once again, what would you say?
Also pretty strong G2 (I think) at 0:40: "Pretending not to notice", and once again the "notice" part sounds like goes down to E 


Finally, many fry notes here on the entire song, maybe a E2 there? (not sure if they have enough control and tone to count) but I share the video for people know them and can have their own judgement on it.

What do you think about all that Platypus ? 

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

Hey, nice finds! I'd say we can actually hold off on worrying about the studio version for the time being, because the notes in a lot of these are actually better anyway. Here's what I got from each of them:

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

First of all, I'm not 100% sure if I pitched them right (that's why I'm looking for feedbacks lol), but this is what i got:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

"Thermal count is rising (G2) in perpetual writhing" (F♯2)

I'm actually hearing lots of F♯2s in this one, so right off the bat I'm already on board with counting the F♯2s from it over the ones in the studio version.

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

This one sounds a bit strange to me, I'm not sure but Dave voice sounds very strong and low for his timbre... maybe shift-pitched? whatever I can only hear it bottom at G2s here.

This one also gets down to F♯2, but I definitely hear what you mean about the pitch-shifting/unnatural sound. It doesn't get any lower than most of the others anyway though, so I think we can safely disregard this one and not worry about how legit the notes are.

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

"and the sanity they lose (F♯2)"

This one is a little harder to hear, but I think you're right about that note being an F♯2. Most of this one is done a bit higher though; generally seems to bottom around A2 with a couple G2s I think.

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

"and the sanity they lose (E2?)" also please check it out at 0:22: "as our nervous systems jerk" i hear E2s as well
1:01 "in the dark" sounds like a fry E2 once again, what would you say?
Also pretty strong G2 (I think) at 0:40: "Pretending not to notice", and once again the "notice" part sounds like goes down to E 

This one was a good find for sure. I'm only hearing "and their sanity they lose" as a G2, but I do think that "WHILE OUR nervous systems jerk" gets down to E2, with even a slide down to a fryish B1 on "NERvous systems"! Dunno how favorable people will be about counting that though.

For "pretending not to notice" I'm hearing it bottom at a gravelly F♯2, but then at 0:49 that scream on "our environment was WRECKED" sound like it actually gets up to a false cord D5/D♯5! So that's probably worth jotting down as well. The note on "the DARK of dawn patrol" just sounds like cracklefry to me, so I wouldn't bother with that one.

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Finally, many fry notes here on the entire song, maybe a E2 there? (not sure if they have enough control and tone to count) but I share the video for people know them and can have their own judgement on it.

Yeah this one is definitely more fryish than the rest (probably the closest resemblance to the studio version of any of them), and it also has that other pitch-shifted vocal going on behind it, so it's pretty tricky to figure out. I hear more a bunch more F♯2s in it, and on first listen I thought I heard some fryish C2s that sounded controlled enough to be countable somewhere, but listening back I'm having a hard time picking out anything countable below F♯2.

[kewis]

Aug 29, 2022 19:40:14 GMT Hennessy Macklemore III said:

Hey, nice finds! I'd say we can actually hold off on worrying about the studio version for the time being, because the notes in a lot of these are actually better anyway. Here's what I got from each of them:

Aug 29, 2022 16:50:10 GMT EddieCheivz said:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}

"and the sanity they lose (E2?)" also please check it out at 0:22: "as our nervous systems jerk" i hear E2s as well
1:01 "in the dark" sounds like a fry E2 once again, what would you say?
Also pretty strong G2 (I think) at 0:40: "Pretending not to notice", and once again the "notice" part sounds like goes down to E 

This one was a good find for sure. I'm only hearing "and their sanity they lose" as a G2, but I do think that "WHILE OUR nervous systems jerk" gets down to E2, with even a slide down to a fryish B1 on "NERvous systems"! Dunno how favorable people will be about counting that though.

For "pretending not to notice" I'm hearing it bottom at a gravelly F♯2, but then at 0:49 that scream on "our environment was WRECKED" sound like it actually gets up to a false cord D5/D♯5! So that's probably worth jotting down as well. The note on "the DARK of dawn patrol" just sounds like cracklefry to me, so I wouldn't bother with that one.

I see the lows on this one have been counted down to F#2, but I'm not sure why as the "WHILE OUR nervous systems jerk" lows sound like E2s to me and well strong enough to be counted. I wouldn't bother much with the B1 though, maybe put it in spoilers but I feel it's a bit too short to count.

[Hennessy Macklemore III]

Yeah Platypus could we get you in this discussion at all? I'd greatly prefer to actually get assessments and feedback about these notes from the thread owner rather than just having the OP quietly updated with certain ones counted and others not, and no explanation provided for the decisions behind that. There's not even a number indicator in the spoiler to explain why the E♭5 is being ruled questionable. :scratch:

[Platypus]

I'm not hearing any E2 the aforementioned passages, though the video quality doesn't help.

B1 isn't very good, E♭5 isn't very good

[CT]