How far apart are male and female voices really? (215 views)

[Death Con 3]

People generally say an octave, but that's only true for classical music, where females sing a lot in M2 but this is forbidden for males. When you look at styles of music where they use their voices the same way (i.e. rock, pop, r&b, some [esp. more modern] musical theater), the gap is much smaller.

Look at how many male singers you have belting in the lower fifth octave, and compare that to how few female singers you have belting in the lower sixth octave. Look at how many more females speak in the E3-G3 range than males in the E2-G2 range.

I would suspect the actual distance is somewhere between a major third to a perfect fifth, perhaps it's like a perfect fourth or something. (i.e. the equivalent male key for Defying Gravity would be Ab, the equivalent female key for Don't Stop Believin' would be A, in terms of how impressive it is, a male singing F5 in M1 is the equivalent of a female singing Bb5 in M1)

[asgardvoxx]

“forbidden for males”? Not quite — most classical voice types don’t use it, but there exist countertenors who do (to great effect).

The music industry loves guys with high voices much more than it loves guys with low voices, but the gap between basses and contraltos is much wider than the gap between high tenors and high sopranos. I’d say the gap is about 9-10 semitones for lower voices, 6-8 semitones for mid-placed voices and 4-5 semitones for high-placed voices. Of course, exceptions exist, but this feels fairly accurate.

[Steingrim]

I sing duets some times with a jazz singer. I think both our placements are close to the middle. My M1 range has about G-G#3 as it's midpoint, her M1 range about D#-E4. That's about 8 semitones.
If we look at the modal passaggi of the various voice types, the secondo passaggios are approximately :

Bass : C-C#4
Baritone : D-E4
Tenor : F-G4
High tenor + Contralto : G-A4
Mezzo : A-B4
Soprano : B4-C#5

The tessituras are further apart than that, the bass is bottom heavy, the soprano is top heavy.

Nov 2, 2024 17:12:59 GMT Death Con 3 said:

a male singing F5 in M1 is the equivalent of a female singing Bb5 in M1)

One would think so, but there's a tendency for the M1 mechanism to hit the max at about G-G#5. Sopranos belting above that is extremely rare, but the soprano's ability with an F-F#5 may be as good as the high tenor's ability with a C5. 

[Death Con 3]

Nov 2, 2024 19:27:18 GMT Steingrim said:

I sing duets some times with a jazz singer. I think both our placements are close to the middle. My M1 range has about G-G#3 as it's midpoint, her M1 range about D#-E4. That's about 8 semitones.
If we look at the modal passaggi of the various voice types, the secondo passaggios are approximately :

Bass : C-C#4
Baritone : D-E4
Tenor : F-G4
High tenor + Contralto : G-A4
Mezzo : A-B4
Soprano : B4-C#5

The tessituras are further apart than that, the bass is bottom heavy, the soprano is top heavy.

Nov 2, 2024 17:12:59 GMT Death Con 3 said:

a male singing F5 in M1 is the equivalent of a female singing Bb5 in M1)

One would think so, but there's a tendency for the M1 mechanism to hit the max at about G-G#5. Sopranos belting above that is extremely rare, but the soprano's ability with an F-F#5 may be as good as the high tenor's ability with a C5. 

I would assume that the M1 mechanism hits the max at different places for different voice types. I can't imagine that a bass or baritone would ever have a G#5 in M1, or even most tenors. Even adult Michael Jackson topped out at F5 in M1, though as a child, he got all the way up to Bb5 in it. Caleb Hyles, a fully grown man, even hit a brief B5 in M1 once. It wouldn't surprise me if the best sopranos could get up to C6 or D6 in it.

I also don't think the midpoint of the M1 range is necessarily a good metric because of how high a well-trained singer can stretch their voice...if you had a well-trained tenor who could go from Ab2-Ab5 in M1, the midpoint would be D4, but their most comfortable range would probably be centered a bit lower (i.e. it's more likely E3-F#4 for their strongest area than G3-A4)

[Steingrim]

Nov 3, 2024 8:07:14 GMT Death Con 3 said:

Nov 2, 2024 19:27:18 GMT Steingrim said:

I sing duets some times with a jazz singer. I think both our placements are close to the middle. My M1 range has about G-G#3 as it's midpoint, her M1 range about D#-E4. That's about 8 semitones.
If we look at the modal passaggi of the various voice types, the secondo passaggios are approximately :

Bass : C-C#4
Baritone : D-E4
Tenor : F-G4
High tenor + Contralto : G-A4
Mezzo : A-B4
Soprano : B4-C#5

The tessituras are further apart than that, the bass is bottom heavy, the soprano is top heavy.

One would think so, but there's a tendency for the M1 mechanism to hit the max at about G-G#5. Sopranos belting above that is extremely rare, but the soprano's ability with an F-F#5 may be as good as the high tenor's ability with a C5. 

I would assume that the M1 mechanism hits the max at different places for different voice types. I can't imagine that a bass or baritone would ever have a G#5 in M1, or even most tenors. Even adult Michael Jackson topped out at F5 in M1, though as a child, he got all the way up to Bb5 in it. Caleb Hyles, a fully grown man, even hit a brief B5 in M1 once. It wouldn't surprise me if the best sopranos could get up to C6 or D6 in it.

I also don't think the midpoint of the M1 range is necessarily a good metric because of how high a well-trained singer can stretch their voice...if you had a well-trained tenor who could go from Ab2-Ab5 in M1, the midpoint would be D4, but their most comfortable range would probably be centered a bit lower (i.e. it's more likely E3-F#4 for their strongest area than G3-A4)

The ceiling that I was referring to is independent of voice types. A bass can't get anywhere near that typical ceiling, but for other reasons. There are exceptions, Kaji has identified a few sopranos that have hit a C6 in modal voice and a male soprano with an A5. My female jazz singer friend is typical in that she has a decent modal F5, yet she is unable to reach a G#5. 

Your tenor example represents an extremely high tenor ala Steve Perry, his typical modal singing range was something like G3-E5, with very few notes below that while performing. A random tenor who sings a chest-like Ab5 is most probably singing in M2 mixed voice.

The midpoint metric works very well for both me and my jazz singer friend, in terms of finding the strongest area and also the best two octaves. It may not work that well for singers with an underdeveloped range, and it doesn't work if one includes notes that are produced in the M0 or M2 mechanisms (including mixed voice). Differentiating between modal voice and the other two can be very difficult for the listener.

That doesn't mean that the 8 semitones difference between me and my friend holds across (corresponding) male vs female voice types, and tessituras can be more top or bottom heavy than ours are. As you can see from the passaggio list in my post above, male passaggis differ more than female passaggis do, discounting the truly abberational. Almost an octave for males (I've heard of B3 and Bb4), and about half an octave for females.

Caleb Hyles. There's a B5 at the end of this vocal range video, and it's falsetto : www.youtube.com/watch?v=MitgCdb3c9g