Marwan Ayman (8,096 views)

[Steingrim]

Sept 23, 2023 21:24:25 GMT bringerofchaos said:

Sept 23, 2023 17:28:28 GMT rootyrootz said:

Idk who Peter is but how can you listen to those other guys' voices and think Marwan here is a natural bass or baritone like them? He has clearly put in the work to have access to this lower range, but that doesn't change his natural placement which clearly seems higher

Peter Barber, from The Bass Gang.

He talks about Marwan's voice here: 
youtu.be/Tu92fd97RLY?si=MUKVa181Q9iwO3Qv

I feel more inclined to believe Peter, since he's a professional and he's best friends with Marwan and he's worked with him for a while.
Just my 2 cents and you can disagree.

Yeah, that's a very nice and smooth Bb1 that Peter commends Marwan for singing. It even sounds easy.

[sylvia!!]

in regards to the purple notes:

we generally don't have a colour for mixed notes and we just consider them black notes here. there's been discussions here and there on if we should use a different colour for mix, but for now we just keep it black

[bassmanmatteo]

youtu.be/xizhiBFkB9o?si=rdrJGMxivDOhBxei
Bb0 by Marwan, Peter, and Tomi here at 3:58.

[Steingrim]

Sept 23, 2023 17:28:28 GMT rootyrootz said:

Idk who Peter is but how can you listen to those other guys' voices and think Marwan here is a natural bass or baritone like them? He has clearly put in the work to have access to this lower range, but that doesn't change his natural placement which clearly seems higher

Most people don't really know what a true bass sounds like. Here's a young one. He doesn't sing below F2 anywhere in the clip, but listen to his timbre, his weight and his power.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFNBOv6E7g

Sept 23, 2023 21:24:25 GMT bringerofchaos said:

I feel more inclined to believe Peter, since he's a professional and he's best friends with Marwan and he's worked with him for a while.

Just my 2 cents and you can disagree.

I just saw a shorts video where Peter Barber tries to sing Castellucci's lowest note, which is a B0. After making an attempt, he says "I'm obviously chest-frying". There's no such thing as chest-fry, it's impossible to mix the two registers. People tend to use the term about fry notes that are sufficiently good (and typically not that low) that there is no noticeable rattle, which means that they sound "chesty". Peter Barber's B0 is not even close, it's very rattly and close to having no tonality. What would he call fry ? A collection of clicking noises with no tonality ?

Some of Marwan's low notes are sufficiently good that a lot of people would call them "chest fry". Technically they are fry notes, just very good ones. 
 

[brookesquatchy]

Sept 24, 2023 8:50:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Peter Barber says in his video where he talks to Glenn Miller that his passaggi are at G#3 and C#4 which would make him a bass. The bass baritone designation probably stems from the fact that he sings G4s at the opera. Which is slightly high for him, but it may work as well as for some regular baritones.

Marwan's G#4 that was mentioned previously sounds like it's not that far beyond his secondo passaggio. My secondo passaggio is at F#4 and the feeling I get is that he's not that dissimilar. If there's one thing that I'm not, it's a bass. Marwan might have a powerful lower extension that defies his timbre and even his passaggi. That would, at most, make him similar to Elvis Presley.

ehhh peter's passaggios more sound like they sit at A3 and D4 to me. he says his primo passaggio sits at "like A♭" after also saying he's a basso cantante, which according to some sources can have passaggi at A3 and D4. it could be that he was told he was a basso cantante because it's the closest italian classification equivalent to a bass-baritone. regardless he says the lowest note he feels comfortable singing in an operatic context is F2 and the highest is G4, and his voice isnt all that weighty relative to a lot of full basses i've heard, even higher ones like avi kaplan. peter is pretty definitively a bass-baritone in my mind, but that doesnt really have much to do with marwan other than the fact that marwan's voice is clearly higher so he at least would have to be higher than a bass-baritone, which doesn't really say anything. this is marwans thread not peters though so discussion on him is not that pertinent to the topic at hand

[Steingrim]

Oct 18, 2023 0:45:11 GMT brookesquatchy said:

Sept 24, 2023 8:50:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Peter Barber says in his video where he talks to Glenn Miller that his passaggi are at G#3 and C#4 which would make him a bass. The bass baritone designation probably stems from the fact that he sings G4s at the opera. Which is slightly high for him, but it may work as well as for some regular baritones.

Marwan's G#4 that was mentioned previously sounds like it's not that far beyond his secondo passaggio. My secondo passaggio is at F#4 and the feeling I get is that he's not that dissimilar. If there's one thing that I'm not, it's a bass. Marwan might have a powerful lower extension that defies his timbre and even his passaggi. That would, at most, make him similar to Elvis Presley.

ehhh peter's passaggios more sound like they sit at A3 and D4 to me. he says his primo passaggio sits at "like A♭" after also saying he's a basso cantante, which according to some sources can have passaggi at A3 and D4. it could be that he was told he was a basso cantante because it's the closest italian classification equivalent to a bass-baritone. regardless he says the lowest note he feels comfortable singing in an operatic context is F2 and the highest is G4, and his voice isnt all that weighty relative to a lot of full basses i've heard, even higher ones like avi kaplan. he's pretty definitively a bass-baritone in my mind, but that doesnt really have much to do with marwan

I'd like to hear Marwan sing the lowest parts in their new "Gaston" video with the same weight as Peter Barber. The lowest passage is from about G2-E3. youtu.be/Xsh5fnEc7NA?si=JSOzkdUkYXVDFZAm&t=195

[Macca]

So, I was going to post about this, but I guess I just forgot. since we now know that Marwan is a true bass singer and not a tenor bass wannabe like I thought. I think his lows should start at F♯2 and highs at C♯4.

[rootyrootz]

The fourth octave seems to come so naturally to this fella (especially G#4 and Bb4 in Arabian Nights) while the 2nd clearly does not. The linked D2 is fairly soft, and other than that it seems like he uses a very forced M1 for everything else. I just...don't think he's a bass, you guys. I'll stop commenting on this thread now cuz I seem to be the minority but I had to vocalize this or else I'll explode

Oct 3, 2023 19:50:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Most people don't really know what a true bass sounds like. Here's a young one. He doesn't sing below F2 anywhere in the clip, but listen to his timbre, his weight and his power.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFNBOv6E7g

Okay so yeah that guy is a true bass. He sounds nothing like Marwan??

[Steingrim]

Oct 18, 2023 19:32:31 GMT rootyrootz said:

The fourth octave seems to come so naturally to this fella (especially G#4 and Bb4 in Arabian Nights) while the 2nd clearly does not. The linked D2 is fairly soft, and other than that it seems like he uses a very forced M1 for everything else. I just...don't think he's a bass, you guys. I'll stop commenting on this thread now cuz I seem to be the minority but I had to vocalize this or else I'll explode

Oct 3, 2023 19:50:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Most people don't really know what a true bass sounds like. Here's a young one. He doesn't sing below F2 anywhere in the clip, but listen to his timbre, his weight and his power.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFNBOv6E7g

Okay so yeah that guy is a true bass. He sounds nothing like Marwan??

I think both you and I have a slightly darker timbre than Marwan. Boringly baritonal, but that's just the way it is.

[brookesquatchy]

Oct 18, 2023 19:32:31 GMT rootyrootz said:

I just...don't think he's a bass, you guys. I'll stop commenting on this thread now cuz I seem to be the minority but I had to vocalize this or else I'll explode

i don't think ur in the minority only 1 person of the 4 or 5 ish who have given their opinions so far has claimed they think he's a bass. he sounds like a tenor to me, his passaggios seem like they sit at or around C♯4 and F♯4 which would make him a low tenor in all likelihood. ive also said multiple times he has a super bright timbre relative to people like tomi who are pretty clearly natural baritones, and his mix sounds pretty similar to his friend casper fox's who is undeniably a tenor. i would say marwan is a low-placed tenor with a strong lower extension which i think most people who have participated in this thread would agree on being at least close to what he actually is

[Steingrim]

Oct 19, 2023 2:03:34 GMT brookesquatchy said:

Oct 18, 2023 19:32:31 GMT rootyrootz said:

I just...don't think he's a bass, you guys. I'll stop commenting on this thread now cuz I seem to be the minority but I had to vocalize this or else I'll explode

i don't think ur in the minority only 1 person of the 4 or 5 ish who have given their opinions so far has claimed they think he's a bass. he sounds like a tenor to me, his passaggios seem like they sit at or around C♯4 and F♯4 which would make him a low tenor in all likelihood. ive also said multiple times he has a super bright timbre relative to people like tomi who are pretty clearly natural baritones, and his mix sounds pretty similar to his friend casper fox's who is undeniably a tenor. i would say marwan is a low-placed tenor with a strong lower extension which i think most people who have participated in this thread would agree on being at least close to what he actually is

Yeah, compare to Castellucci and Ivan Rebroff. Both have good fry notes and a decent low C in chest voice. Ivan Rebroff has more power in the lower octave 2 but Castellucci can sing as low as G#1 in chest voice on a good day, live. Neither one is a true bass. They are both baritones with powerful low extensions. Castellucci claims so, himself. 

[rootyrootz]

Yay!

I guess I was misreading, it kinda seemed like more and more credence was generating toward him being a bass. Most noteably from the artist formerly known as chimmy

[Steingrim]

Oct 19, 2023 13:26:53 GMT rootyrootz said:

Yay!

I guess I was misreading, it kinda seemed like more and more credence was generating toward him being a bass. Most noteably from the artist formerly known as chimmy

Yeah, chimmy is kind of funny some times.

[wbradycall]

Honestly, I'm like 99% sure he's not a tenor. He may have a light and bright timbre, but he has comfort in his low range that most tenors just simply don't have. I guess the one way to be sure would be his passaggio, in which idk where his passaggio is because he uses a gradual mixed voice for his high notes. But his low notes do not sound anything at all like a tenor's. I would say he's probably a lyric baritone if I had to guess, leaning slightly more towards the Baryton-Martin fach than the Kavalier baritone fach but in between. But it's debatable about whether or not the fach system even applies to him in the first place because he is a contemporary singer afterall 🤷‍♂️

[wbradycall]

Sept 23, 2023 14:25:57 GMT bringerofchaos said:

I know some of you might not agree with this, but Peter has confirmed that Marwan is a bass, it’s just hard to tell because of his light and bright tone, since he’s the youngest of the boys in TBG, but he has really good control on those lows, and I’m not sure a tenor would go around having daily B1s. We’ll have to see how his voice grows and develops as he gets older.

At his lowest, he’s prolly a high bass or baritone.

I think I'll respectfully disagree. Though he's almost certainly not a tenor unlike what the original author of this says, I also doubt he's a bass. I think of him as more of a mid-ranged lyric baritone. I mean maybe I'm wrong and he could be a bass but I just don't hear exactly where his passaggio is. Peter Barber is right about most things when it comes to musical ideas and he's one of the smartest people I know when it comes to that kind of stuff. I admit that I don't watch his reaction videos often, but when you hear him talk in interviews, he seems very informative. I guess I'll probably respectfully disagree with Mr. Barber in this case.

[bringerofchaos]

Nov 3, 2023 2:09:57 GMT wbradycall said:

Sept 23, 2023 14:25:57 GMT bringerofchaos said:

I know some of you might not agree with this, but Peter has confirmed that Marwan is a bass, it’s just hard to tell because of his light and bright tone, since he’s the youngest of the boys in TBG, but he has really good control on those lows, and I’m not sure a tenor would go around having daily B1s. We’ll have to see how his voice grows and develops as he gets older.

At his lowest, he’s prolly a high bass or baritone.

I think I'll respectfully disagree. Though he's almost certainly not a tenor unlike what the original author of this says, I also doubt he's a bass. I think of him as more of a mid-ranged lyric baritone. I mean maybe I'm wrong and he could be a bass but I just don't hear exactly where his passaggio is. Peter Barber is right about most things when it comes to musical ideas and he's one of the smartest people I know when it comes to that kind of stuff. I admit that I don't watch his reaction videos often, but when you hear him talk in interviews, he seems very informative. I guess I'll probably respectfully disagree with Mr. Barber in this case.

Okay. Outside of the opera/classical world, timbre and passagio don’t matter. In all of the contexts Marwan sings, he is a bass. He sounds very comfortable and warm down there, it’s just very bright. He’s also got a nice sounding high range as well, he just has to develop his technique, which he is doing a great job at.

And I generally don’t think we should be using operatic/classical criteria to judge singers not using operatic technique.

[bringerofchaos]

Oct 3, 2023 19:50:34 GMT Steingrim said:

Sept 23, 2023 17:28:28 GMT rootyrootz said:

Idk who Peter is but how can you listen to those other guys' voices and think Marwan here is a natural bass or baritone like them? He has clearly put in the work to have access to this lower range, but that doesn't change his natural placement which clearly seems higher

Most people don't really know what a true bass sounds like. Here's a young one. He doesn't sing below F2 anywhere in the clip, but listen to his timbre, his weight and his power.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFNBOv6E7g

Sept 23, 2023 21:24:25 GMT bringerofchaos said:

I feel more inclined to believe Peter, since he's a professional and he's best friends with Marwan and he's worked with him for a while.

Just my 2 cents and you can disagree.

I just saw a shorts video where Peter Barber tries to sing Castellucci's lowest note, which is a B0. After making an attempt, he says "I'm obviously chest-frying". There's no such thing as chest-fry, it's impossible to mix the two registers. People tend to use the term about fry notes that are sufficiently good (and typically not that low) that there is no noticeable rattle, which means that they sound "chesty". Peter Barber's B0 is not even close, it's very rattly and close to having no tonality. What would he call fry ? A collection of clicking noises with no tonality ?

Some of Marwan's low notes are sufficiently good that a lot of people would call them "chest fry". Technically they are fry notes, just very good ones. 
 

Well, chest-fry isn’t technically a mix of the two registers, even Peter would tell you that. It’s just a name for really well controlled strohbass with enough resonance to the point where it sounds chesty even, unless it gets stupid low.

And another thing. Marwan. Does. Not. Fry. He said it himself he doesn’t really utilize fry, usually only subharmonics for the super low stuff. He’s got a strong tone down to G#1. (in chest)

[brookesquatchy]

G♯1 is an unbelievably uncommon note for men to have in true chest voice. take this video of geoff castellucci's low range for example. while his voice may have solid support and connection down to its lowest natural extreme u can clearly hear his voice gains a rattle in the upper 1st octave that it doesn't have in the lower 2nd. said rattle sets in at the latest by B♭1. that's the transition from M1 to M0. this video of colm mcguinness is another example and one that's a bit more obvious. when he goes from D2 to C2 a rattle comes into his voice that indicates the switch from M1 to M0. M1 is true, full voice, and M0 is pulse register. it's under this pulse register descriptors like "fry," "chest-fry" and "strohbass" fall. if someone is especially good at supporting and connecting M0 it can sound like an M1 note to the untrained ear, but the overtone patterns are fundamentally different. avi kaplan, tim foust, geoff castellucci, and marwan are examples of people who have chest-like connection in their M0 register. marwan's lowest M1 note specifically to my ears falls somewhere between E♭2 and C♯2. he has to drop into M0 to sing the D2 in the Bass Gang's recent cover of We Don't Talk About Bruno, but he has some M1 D2s and C♯2s in some of his covers. now, a study by the Journal of Voice analyzed a series of male and female singers to determine overlaps in M1 and M2 vibratory mechanisms via looking at the overtones on a spectrogram, and determined that across their studied sample population that the average lowest M1 note for men sits at E♭2. this means in true chest registration marwan sits pretty much dead on average. most of that isn't all that pertinent to voice type, though, while tessitura, timbre and passaggi are. marwan's tessitura is such that his typical larynx position in the lower 3rd octave is what i would describe as "south of neutral," meaning his tessitura seems like it ends moreso in the mid 3rd octave, which is typical of tenors. his timbre even in his low range and especially in his mid and high range is audibly much brighter than any of the other members of the bass gang, 1 of whom is a textbook baritone. finally, his passaggios sit just north of where a higher baritone's would sit, edging into lower tenor passagi territory, seemingly around C4/C♯4 and F4/F♯4. this isn't to say i think marwan shouldn't be trying to sing what he does or that it makes his low notes any less impressive. if anything it'd be more badass for a tenor to be singing 1st octave notes like he does. his voice just isn't that of a bass and most likely also isnt that of a baritone and that's not indicative of anything positive or negative.

this is probably going to be my last word on what i think of his voice type and the specifics of it bc this debate i feel is irrelevant to the purpose of the thread so yall have fun talking it out i guess

[Steingrim]

Nov 3, 2023 6:22:45 GMT brookesquatchy said:

now, a study by the Journal of Voice analyzed a series of male and female singers to determine overlaps in M1 and M2 vibratory mechanisms via looking at the overtones on a spectrogram, and determined that across their studied sample population that the average lowest M1 note for men sits at E♭2. 

Page 428 :

TABLE 3.

Range of Mechanisms M1 and M2 and of Their Overlap Zone

Mechanism M1 Mechanism M2 Overlap

M Mean limits Eb2–F#4 F3–F5 F3–F#5
W Mean limits D3–G#4 G#3–C5 G#3–G#5

The only thing that makes sense there, is the lower m1 limit. Unless the upper m1 limit refers to an idealized non-thinned chest voice. G#4 for women seems low even then. The rest of the numbers make no sense.  

Castellucci's low notes. Here he sings some bass boosted A1s. Sounds like chest voice to me. www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVmIUXUFQmg 

[brookesquatchy]

im only citing the lower M1 limit which you claim makes sense. just glancing at it the F#5 and G#5 thing in the overlap description seem like typos where they meant F#4 and G#4. i don't have time in my personal life to comb through the whole thing for factual or linguistic errors or look for equally technical studies that claim counter to what that one has. the lowest average M1 claim seemed consistent with other sources and the way research was went about in regards to mechanisms seems applicable to defining the lower threshold of M1

those A1s are fairly evidently not M1 to my ears. they've got that very distinct M0 rattle. honestly some of the C2s in the opening phrase dont sound like M1 either to me, which would make sense for his placement. some of the overtones (in the 100 hz-5 khz area especially) get, for lack of a better term, sloppier and less defined as he reaches for that A1 relative to the notes above C2, which is kind of the tell for M0 as far as i understand. it's not impossible for him to have sung an A1 in M1 but i don't think specifically those A1s are such an example. they're actually some of the more M0-sounding A1s i've heard from him to be perfectly honest

[Steingrim]

Nov 4, 2023 13:18:05 GMT brookesquatchy said:

im only citing the lower M1 limit which you claim makes sense. just glancing at it the F#5 and G#5 thing in the overlap description seem like typos where they meant F#4 and G#4. i don't have time in my personal life to comb through the whole thing for factual or linguistic errors or look for equally technical studies that claim counter to what that one has. the lowest average M1 claim seemed consistent with other sources and the way research was went about in regards to mechanisms seems applicable to defining the lower threshold of M1

those A1s are fairly evidently not M1 to my ears. they've got that very distinct M0 rattle. honestly some of the C2s in the opening phrase dont sound like M1 either to me, which would make sense for his placement. some of the overtones (in the 100 hz-5 khz area especially) get, for lack of a better term, sloppier and less defined as he reaches for that A1 relative to the notes above C2, which is kind of the tell for M0 as far as i understand. it's not impossible for him to have sung an A1 in M1 but i don't think specifically those A1s are such an example. they're actually some of the more M0-sounding A1s i've heard from him to be perfectly honest

Ok. They sound more chesty than Ms corresponding low notes do. And less rattly than his A1s in "Rains of Castamere", which is clearly M0. He sounds a bit different in his shorts videos, this may have something to with them being less digitally processed. But it's very difficult to sound totally even way below the bass clef, which makes this difficult. Even Kurt Moll sounds slightly uneven at C2, and this is one of his best ones : youtu.be/gBZzP9XxezA?si=KZo-05131KzJp7A3&t=42

[wbradycall]

Nov 3, 2023 2:25:44 GMT bringerofchaos said:

Nov 3, 2023 2:09:57 GMT wbradycall said:

I think I'll respectfully disagree. Though he's almost certainly not a tenor unlike what the original author of this says, I also doubt he's a bass. I think of him as more of a mid-ranged lyric baritone. I mean maybe I'm wrong and he could be a bass but I just don't hear exactly where his passaggio is. Peter Barber is right about most things when it comes to musical ideas and he's one of the smartest people I know when it comes to that kind of stuff. I admit that I don't watch his reaction videos often, but when you hear him talk in interviews, he seems very informative. I guess I'll probably respectfully disagree with Mr. Barber in this case.

Okay. Outside of the opera/classical world, timbre and passagio don’t matter. In all of the contexts Marwan sings, he is a bass. He sounds very comfortable and warm down there, it’s just very bright. He’s also got a nice sounding high range as well, he just has to develop his technique, which he is doing a great job at.

And I generally don’t think we should be using operatic/classical criteria to judge singers not using operatic technique.

Okay fair enough 👍. And you're right that it doesn't matter in his case because he's a contemporary singer.

[Steingrim]

Nov 18, 2023 21:16:35 GMT wbradycall said:

Nov 3, 2023 2:25:44 GMT bringerofchaos said:

Okay. Outside of the opera/classical world, timbre and passagio don’t matter. In all of the contexts Marwan sings, he is a bass. He sounds very comfortable and warm down there, it’s just very bright. He’s also got a nice sounding high range as well, he just has to develop his technique, which he is doing a great job at.

And I generally don’t think we should be using operatic/classical criteria to judge singers not using operatic technique.

Okay fair enough 👍. And you're right that it doesn't matter in his case because he's a contemporary singer.

This is how Castellucci defines himself :

Voice type : baritone
Typical role : low bass singer

Fair enough.

[bringerofchaos]

Ive actually consulted a couple of mentors in the BSN about this dilemma, and here’s what they had say.

Peer reviewed sources are great, though, those sources are to standardize the pedagogy and not to be used to approve/disprove stances (edit: for arguments' sake, use it to help instead). Rather, they should all invite conversation and critical thinking.
The voice is as much a growing instrument as it is an aging instrument.
Maybe everyone's premise should begin with: "Wow, Marwan is a great musician. How is that so? Hm.
Interesting, he has good vocal technique to where he breaks certain limits and somehow adheres to these standards as well."
Then, as data is gathered and his development continues: "Would years of specific training assist in eventually determining a fach to allow his career to flourish, or is this an anomaly in which, if trained properly, can have a tenor-like high C and still be able to produce a low C that rivals basses?"
-Thou Yang

People. Timbre does not matter for voice type outside of opera. Neither does the passaggio. It's all based on range, comfort, and where your voice naturally sits unless you're singing the hyper-specific kind of technique required for singing certain operatic roles where tons of other factors are considered. If Marwan trained as an opera singer, perhaps he would end up singing higher repertoire
- we would have no idea until he underwent training. In all the contexts we hear him sing, he is a bass. Imagine yourself in a university choir where a guy might have a timbre more like a tenor but has a comfortable and reliable C2 - that guy is going to be singing bass 2 in that choir, and probably every other choir, 100% of the time. And that's still within the classical world where some kind of voice designation is needed. Timbre and passaggio is even less important if you move beyond into the non-classical world.

-Peter Barber

They both make very good points. Also, brady, I highly recommend not using operatic fachs for Marwan since he’s a contemporary singer.

[Steingrim]

Nov 20, 2023 14:03:38 GMT bringerofchaos said:

They both make very good points. Also, brady, I highly recommend not using operatic voice types for Marwan since he’s a contemporary singer.

I think you mean fachs, which are different to voice types.