bringerofchaos
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Post by bringerofchaos on Nov 22, 2023 22:09:04 GMT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l-xrWOuo00&t=0sNew release from The Bass Gang! Some sick low Cs from Marwan here, with some F1s as well. This gave me the CHILLS! Notes like that convince me more and more that he is a bass. Also, lest we forget, just like there are different flavors of ice cream, there are different flavors of bass, as Peter said.
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Steingrim
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Post by Steingrim on Nov 23, 2023 8:22:56 GMT
www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l-xrWOuo00&t=0sNew release from The Bass Gang! Some sick low Cs from Marwan here, with some F1s as well. This gave me the CHILLS! Notes like that convince me more and more that he is a bass. Also, lest we forget, just like there are different flavors of ice cream, there are different flavors of bass, as Peter said. Nice fry bass lines throughout, from all of them. If one likes that sort of thing. Gunther Emmerlich singing "Im tiefen keller" from a wonderfully resonant D2 is a very different flavor of bass, but it's not exactly contemporary. |
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bringerofchaos
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Post by bringerofchaos on Nov 23, 2023 12:09:07 GMT
On another note, passagi are not super reliable because they can easily be manipulated. They only matter in the classical world, same with timbre. Timbre is just the color your voice has. I think the issue here is that some of y'all are trying to apply operatic criteria to a contemporary singer. I'm just going to restate Peter's statement here. It's all about comfort, range, and where your voice naturally sits, outside of the classical world. His timbre is clearly bright as hell, but he has great tone down to G#1. Also. Marwan doesn't chest-fry. He said it himself. And those C2s in Jolly Sailor Bold, are clearly chest voice. Same with most of his low notes to my ear. Plus, fry is fry, there are just different qualities of it.
I know I'm probs going to get dumped on for this, but yeah. It's about time the OP considered fixing his voice type and lows/highs but he seems to be busy outside of here.
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bringerofchaos
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Post by bringerofchaos on Nov 23, 2023 15:49:37 GMT
I'm sorry to disagree, but I do think he is some kind of bass. This is probably going to be my last word on this, since there seems to be no point in changing yalls minds. Have fun talking it out I guess.
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Post by Goober on Nov 23, 2023 18:09:03 GMT
hey, 5 octave range though.
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bassmanmatteo
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Post by bassmanmatteo on Nov 23, 2023 22:10:56 GMT
What a convoluted mess this thread has all become That’s why some people here have been against voice type discussions cause they lead to debates that go nowhere. |
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Steingrim
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Post by Steingrim on Nov 24, 2023 8:32:57 GMT
What a convoluted mess this thread has all become That’s why some people here have been against voice type discussions cause they lead to debates that go nowhere. The typical voice type discussion is about whether the nondescript is really a baritone or a tenor. "Bass or tenor?" is more unusual. Finding a tenor with the crappiest G#1 in chest voice known to mankind would be an interesting saga. I have a crappy C2 in chest voice and I'm not even a tenor. Quite ordinary compared to mr. Miller. Who would pale into nothingness when faced with a person with passaggi 7 semitones above him who's capable of competing with him in octave 1. |
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Post by Tetra on Nov 24, 2023 14:36:07 GMT
I think it was interesting at first, but then it just devolved into:
"TENOR"
"NUH UH"
"YUH HUH"
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Post by wbradycall on Dec 1, 2023 18:48:22 GMT
Ive actually consulted a couple of mentors in the BSN about this dilemma, and here’s what they had say. Peer reviewed sources are great, though, those sources are to standardize the pedagogy and not to be used to approve/disprove stances (edit: for arguments' sake, use it to help instead). Rather, they should all invite conversation and critical thinking. The voice is as much a growing instrument as it is an aging instrument. Maybe everyone's premise should begin with: "Wow, Marwan is a great musician. How is that so? Hm. Interesting, he has good vocal technique to where he breaks certain limits and somehow adheres to these standards as well." Then, as data is gathered and his development continues: "Would years of specific training assist in eventually determining a fach to allow his career to flourish, or is this an anomaly in which, if trained properly, can have a tenor-like high C and still be able to produce a low C that rivals basses?" -Thou Yang People. Timbre does not matter for voice type outside of opera. Neither does the passaggio. It's all based on range, comfort, and where your voice naturally sits unless you're singing the hyper-specific kind of technique required for singing certain operatic roles where tons of other factors are considered. If Marwan trained as an opera singer, perhaps he would end up singing higher repertoire - we would have no idea until he underwent training. In all the contexts we hear him sing, he is a bass. Imagine yourself in a university choir where a guy might have a timbre more like a tenor but has a comfortable and reliable C2 - that guy is going to be singing bass 2 in that choir, and probably every other choir, 100% of the time. And that's still within the classical world where some kind of voice designation is needed. Timbre and passaggio is even less important if you move beyond into the non-classical world. -Peter Barber They both make very good points. Also, brady, I highly recommend not using operatic fachs for Marwan since he’s a contemporary singer. Okay yeah I sometimes classify contemporary singers by the fach system but not as often as I used to because words such as "tenor" or "baritone" can be used much more broadly in contemporary music than in classical, so much so that the terms barely have any meaning. Whether it be simple terms such as "baritone" or more complicated terms such as "heldentenor" or "basso buffo" those terms are very difficult to apply to contemporary singing because you may never know what someone sounds like in person without a microphone. Naturally lighter-voiced people may use vocal distortion to add a false sense of twang or "dramatic-ness" and also often darken their timbres a lot. Also, people with naturally heavier voices may croon their low notes and sing their high notes with mixed voice for stylistic purposes. That is why I consider it a "gray area" myself as to whether these terms have any meaning outside the world of opera. |
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Post by wbradycall on May 29, 2024 20:03:04 GMT
E3 seems like overinclusion to me, and i wouldn't start his highs that close to his belting limit. D3 ish and E4/F4 is more where i'd put his just off a guess but i do not consume his music hardly at all also im not 100 that he's a tenor. im like 70-30 on low tenor and high baritone. he's audibly much closer to a tenor than he is a bass but his insistence on low singing makes it hard for me to get a great grasp on his tessitura and i dont know enough about his passaggios to say confidently where they sit. i know nobody asked about what i think of the guy but like. i have had small exchanges with him and he seems nice generally but he kind of has an inflated ego in regards to his ability to sing bass (thanks in part to people he knows gassing him up). i will say for his placement he does a good job on those 1st octave notes but he's out here hearting comments telling him he would be a better bass for ptx than matt which seems like a very odd thing to perpetuate in his own comment section to me especially considering it isn't really true lol. also i find it funny in a cringe sort of way that he has his voice type on tomi p's discord server as "high bass" when at the lowest he's barely a high baritone You know, I'm not mad and I get where your logical reasoning is coming from, but I personally wouldn't call him a tenor nor a bass. I guess I can understand why many beginner and amateur pedagogists would call him either or, but in my own opinion he's probably some sort of baritone. But that being said, I have always found it odd that some smart people, even professional opera singers whose opinions I tend to agree with such as Peter Barber, have called him a bass. Literally nothing about his voice says bass, and his low notes may be comfortable for him, but only because he croons them very good. Don't get me wrong, he's good at crooning, but his low notes are still not projected as well as I would expect a genuine bass to, even if it was a young bass singing. I guess if he chooses to classically train and turns out to have a higher passaggio (F#4 or above, perhaps even F4 for some very low tenors) than I thought then I might change my mind. I do respect the fact that you admit that you're not 100% certain about this subject due to not listening to him a ton. I don't listen to a lot of Marwan Ayman's music, either. |
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Post by wbradycall on May 29, 2024 20:07:25 GMT
That's a pretty good fry singer, for a low tenor ! He's in command down into octave 1. Makes Paul McCartney's A1 from "the girl is mine" seem less fantastic. If he developed his actual tessitura he would have quite the range. I doubt he's actually a tenor, though granted, I am not 100% sure because I don't listen to a lot of his music. But it definitely sounds more similar to what he actually is than calling him a bass, I'll say that. I am 99.9% sure this guy is NOT a bass. Perhaps I could understand why beginners of vocal pedagogy would call him a bass, but I don't quite get why people who have been studying pedagogy for years and are professionals in fact call him a bass. Literally nothing about his voice says bass. I wouldn't even call him a low baritone. His E2 and below may be comfortable for him and quality-wise those notes sound decent, but they are not particularly overtone-rich nor resonant like I'd expect a true bass to be. At the lowest, maybe a mid baritone I'd be able to buy. |
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Post by wbradycall on May 29, 2024 20:15:24 GMT
They both make very good points. Also, brady, I highly recommend not using operatic voice types for Marwan since he’s a contemporary singer. I think you mean fachs, which are different to voice types. Depends because the fach system doesn't include Italian terms such as "spinto" and "leggero." But I admit I used to think they were "fachs" until a few months ago when Kaji told me otherwise. |
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Steingrim
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Post by Steingrim on Jun 5, 2024 9:25:19 GMT
That's a pretty good fry singer, for a low tenor ! He's in command down into octave 1. Makes Paul McCartney's A1 from "the girl is mine" seem less fantastic. If he developed his actual tessitura he would have quite the range. I doubt he's actually a tenor, though granted, I am not 100% sure because I don't listen to a lot of his music. But it definitely sounds more similar to what he actually is than calling him a bass, I'll say that. I am 99.9% sure this guy is NOT a bass. Perhaps I could understand why beginners of vocal pedagogy would call him a bass, but I don't quite get why people who have been studying pedagogy for years and are professionals in fact call him a bass. Literally nothing about his voice says bass. I wouldn't even call him a low baritone. His E2 and below may be comfortable for him and quality-wise those notes sound decent, but they are not particularly overtone-rich nor resonant like I'd expect a true bass to be. At the lowest, maybe a mid baritone I'd be able to buy. brookesquatchy thinks his tessitura ends in the mid third octave. I've seen C3-F4 described as a tenor. He's of course a bass singer, that's what he does a lot. Just like Castellucci. |
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Post by wbradycall on Jun 6, 2024 15:37:11 GMT
I doubt he's actually a tenor, though granted, I am not 100% sure because I don't listen to a lot of his music. But it definitely sounds more similar to what he actually is than calling him a bass, I'll say that. I am 99.9% sure this guy is NOT a bass. Perhaps I could understand why beginners of vocal pedagogy would call him a bass, but I don't quite get why people who have been studying pedagogy for years and are professionals in fact call him a bass. Literally nothing about his voice says bass. I wouldn't even call him a low baritone. His E2 and below may be comfortable for him and quality-wise those notes sound decent, but they are not particularly overtone-rich nor resonant like I'd expect a true bass to be. At the lowest, maybe a mid baritone I'd be able to buy. brookesquatchy thinks his tessitura ends in the mid third octave. I've seen C3-F4 described as a tenor. He's of course a bass singer, that's what he does a lot. Just like Castellucci. He actually has comfortable low notes below the third octave. brookesquatchy I usually agree with but sometimes he has said blatantly untrue things (nothing personal against him). Kaji agrees with me that his voice isn't developed nor mature enough for us to classify his voice. |
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Steingrim
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Post by Steingrim on Jun 6, 2024 16:32:08 GMT
brookesquatchy thinks his tessitura ends in the mid third octave. I've seen C3-F4 described as a tenor. He's of course a bass singer, that's what he does a lot. Just like Castellucci. He actually has comfortable low notes below the third octave. brookesquatchy I usually agree with but sometimes he has said blatantly untrue things (nothing personal against him). Kaji agrees with me that his voice isn't developed nor mature enough for us to classify his voice. In my opinion he sings whole passages all in fry voice, right up into octave 3. He tends to alternate between that and fairly high chest voice. So I'm not at all sure how low he sings in actual chest voice. I'm certain that Castellucci sings reoccurring C#2s in chest voice in "Fulsom prison blues", with passages in fry voice down to reoccurring F#1s, to compare. |
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Post by wbradycall on Jun 6, 2024 20:03:10 GMT
He actually has comfortable low notes below the third octave. brookesquatchy I usually agree with but sometimes he has said blatantly untrue things (nothing personal against him). Kaji agrees with me that his voice isn't developed nor mature enough for us to classify his voice. In my opinion he sings whole passages all in fry voice, right up into octave 3. He tends to alternate between that and fairly high chest voice. So I'm not at all sure how low he sings in actual chest voice. I'm certain that Castellucci sings reoccurring C#2s in chest voice in "Fulsom prison blues", with passages in fry voice down to reoccurring F#1s, to compare. Well, with all due respect, I strongly disagree with you that his notes below the 3rd octave are fry. They do not sound like strohbass at all. His E2 sounds like a quiet chest note and is not gravelly enough to be strohbass. I guess his some of his very low "chest" notes, such as his B1, are debatable. But at least most of his 2nd octave notes are absolutely chest. It is rare for anyone who isn't a high tenor to not be able to sing notes below C3 with chest voice. Like in this for example, he overdarkens but still sings a rather comfortable and relaxed G2 that doesn't sound like strohbass and is good in quality: www.youtube.com/shorts/MhtNnRI7LLQAs for his voice type, because I'm not certain myself, I won't debate his voice type. I guess if he chooses to do opera someday and then trains classically for a few years, perhaps I might be able to form a more solid opinion myself after his voice develops. Other than that, I really don't care if he's a high baritone or low tenor, though I can understand both sides of the argument and both statements have valid points. |
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jfb30
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Post by jfb30 on Nov 10, 2024 22:14:16 GMT
Peter Barber, from The Bass Gang. He talks about Marwan's voice here: youtu.be/Tu92fd97RLY?si=MUKVa181Q9iwO3QvI feel more inclined to believe Peter, since he's a professional and he's best friends with Marwan and he's worked with him for a while. Just my 2 cents and you can disagree. Yeah, that's a very nice and smooth Bb1 that Peter commends Marwan for singing. It even sounds easy. Yes, I heard Peter Barber's explanation from that link you posted. Here are his exact words he said about Marwan's voice from the YouTube commentary: "I see there's a fiery debate going so I'll give my thoughts: Marwan is a young singer so his voice is going to be lighter than a mature singer either way. Outside of opera, I don't think there's any question that he's a bass though -- not just in his covers, but I've spoken with Marwan for hours on end for Bass Gang planning, and his voice sits comfortably in the bass range at all times when speaking -- far lower than mine was at his age. In the opera world, he would actually still be considered a bass at this point because he would only be compared to other singers his age. With classical training and years of maturity, he might stay a bass or his voice type might move up depending on what his strengths ending up being. But if he auditioned for any college in the world for classical voice, he would be starting his journey being labeled as a bass because of the ease of his low notes. It's VERY rare that a classical singer his age has already figured out technique and learned how to darken their voice properly and healthily. Anyway, none of that is important since Marwan doesn't sing opera -- in the a cappella and choral worlds, he could comfortably sing the bass 2 part of almost any piece, and to me that's more than enough to call him a bass. Tl;dr -- IMO Marwan is a bass, but is young so his voice is lighter." ![]() ![]() |
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